|
Post by Bluejay on Mar 24, 2005 19:54:08 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Mar 24, 2005 20:20:01 GMT -6
Hey Dr. Bob, here is a CT scan of Terry's brain, beside a CT scan of a healthy brain. Are the dark blue patches on Terry's scan truely just liquid? bluejay Hey thanks for the link! I heard today about this blog but never got the address. First off, the CT is up backwards, but no big deal. The very large dark areas in the center are the lateral ventricles. Just look at the normal scan to see how HUGE these are, indicating a loss of brain tissue where cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) fills up the space. The other dark areas the same color as the ventricles are also CSF fluid. This scan demonstrates a remarkable loss of brain tissue. Rhonda has seen the actual CT of Terri, and said this looks consistent with Terri's actual CT, so maybe this really is her CT. Maybe some good Religious nut right-to-lifer out there can tell us HOW this brain is going to MAGICALLY grow back? .................Bob
|
|
|
Post by Bluejay on Mar 24, 2005 20:39:01 GMT -6
By a miracle Bob, don't you know that? ;D
It's really amazing how much of her brain has gone. I guess that all of the brain tissue that was there was damaged when the oxygen was cut off, and has just disappeared over the years.
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Mar 24, 2005 21:00:43 GMT -6
Husband? HUSBAND? ? ? ? You mean the husband who has made THOUSANDS of dollars off of her condition? and who would stand to lose much of it if they got DIVORCED, but not if he is WIDOWED? With all due respect Jake, have you any idea how much money the right-to-life foks have given Terri's parents to fight this lawsuit? Michael has already turned down ONE MILLION DOLLARS to walk away. It ain't about money. Really now, the shit flows both ways. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) .................Bob
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Mar 24, 2005 21:04:16 GMT -6
By a miracle Bob, don't you know that? ;D GASP! I keep forgetting about these religious nut-cakes and miracles. Thanks for straightening me out! I sense at any moment Terri Shiavo is going to walk out'a her hospice and give a statement to the press! ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) ...............Bob
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 8:01:33 GMT -6
Danimal I am Christian too, though I have only been born once. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) What I am talking about is the fiasco outside the hospice Terri Shiavo is in, where religions fanatics are holding various vigils that can only be described as bizarre. I DO believe in God. I DO believe in Heaven. I truly do NOT understand how anyone who DOES believe in Heaven can honestly think Terri Shiavo is better "alive" (and I use that term loosely) than having her sole enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is where I find much hypocrisy amongst some "Christians." CT scans show Terri's brain is half gone. The cerebral cortex that houses "who we are" is GONE, DEAD! EEG testing reveals she has NO higher cortical functioning. The doctor in me KNOWS she has ZERO chance for recovering. If you take this as true, which I believe FIRMLY it is, then IF one is a Christian, how in the world can you conclude anything other than Terri is better off in Heaven than in this PURGATORY OF HELL that is her current existence? ...............Bob You can make similar cases for people with mental retardation, Autism, physical disabilites...virtually anyone who does not have a quality of life on par with 'normal' human beings. Where does it stop, Bob? Who's to say that down the road someone isn't going to cross even further over the line to the senile or mentally deficient and make the case that because they cannot care for themselves, they should be starved to death? Are we saying that maybe Kervorkian was right? If we are not even going to try anymore with Schiavo, why should we even START with others? Maybe we ought to just go ahead and starve infants who don't meet up to our standards of 'normalcy'. C'mon Doc...give some guidelines here. You may cliam that you're 'just a simple country doctor' (to quote Star Trek's Dr. McCoy), but hell man, I'm not even that...I'm just a simple "red shirt"....and we all know what happens to THEM...don't we...
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 8:14:46 GMT -6
Maybe some good Religious nut right-to-lifer out there can tell us HOW this brain is going to MAGICALLY grow back? .................Bob So, you're saying that everyone that suffers brain trauma which in any way impairs their functioning in life deserves to die?
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 8:19:54 GMT -6
With all due respect Jake, have you any idea how much money the right-to-life foks have given Terri's parents to fight this lawsuit? .................Bob Again, if the 'right to lifers' are willing to put up the money to keep her alive, what's the harm? It isn't costing the husband anything. The husband isn't even 100% certain what her wishes were anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 10:24:13 GMT -6
So, you're saying that everyone that suffers brain trauma which in any way impairs their functioning in life deserves to die? Okay Dan tell me please where Bob said that. Nobody here and nobody out in the public has ever said that is going to happen. This is one case that stands out by itself. I don't see a waiting list or take a number line. Could you please explain your statement and were this information came from? ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) And were may I ask are the right to lifers going to get this money? Is it going to come out of their personal pocket? Are they saying they are going to pay for then have the state do it? Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Hedo69 on Mar 25, 2005 10:28:39 GMT -6
From the Christian perspective: If God doesn't want her to die, he won't let her. Let this lady go. Maybe he is ready for her to be in heaven and is guiding the judges decision. After all he is all powerful, all knowing.
Why is death so frightening? Especially to the believers. This isn't a murder, this is simply letting one go back from whence they came. It is nature and natural, albeit I DO wish Dr. Kevorkian could be there to make it quick.
Being able to die when I want gives me great comfort in getting old. I hope Dr. assisted suicide is the norm at that time, but if not, non-tradititional methods work just as well.
What is life if you can't live? Please answer this? What is life if you can't live it??
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 10:30:21 GMT -6
Maybe we ought to just go ahead and starve infants who don't meet up to our standards of 'normalcy'. ... Slow down their pal. Your are running rabid with crazy ideas here that will never happen in out life time. You are making yourself look like one of the Religious Right with statements like that. ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png) I think that is getting just a little rediculious to say why don't we starve infants who don't meet up. Dan lets get real here guy. ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Chicago Jake on Mar 25, 2005 10:41:59 GMT -6
I think Danimal has a good point. Slippery slopes can be very slippery. When income taxes were first introduced in the US, they were around 2%. If someone had said "Whoa, bad idea; before long they'll be taking a THIRD of our income!", everyone would have laughed at him. But he would have been right. I know it's not the same thing, just pointing out that when the camel sticks his nose under the tent, pretty soon he's all the way inside.....Jake
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 11:02:01 GMT -6
What is life if you can't live? Please answer this? What is life if you can't live it?? Great question Deborah. Is living just laying there with tubes in you to keep you going? Those of you that do not agree with what is happening to Terri, please answer those questions. Would you want to lay there not knowing what is going on day after day like that? Joe. PS. Deb where have you been. Trace trying to keep you under control? ;D ;D ;D ;D Or did that Three Mutt Merlot get to? ;D ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) ;D
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 11:57:59 GMT -6
Slow down their pal. Your are running rabid with crazy ideas here that will never happen in out life time. You are making yourself look like one of the Religious Right with statements like that. ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png) I think that is getting just a little rediculious to say why don't we starve infants who don't meet up. Dan lets get real here guy. ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Joe. Cripes, here we go with this 'Religious Right' bullshit again. Ain't it nice to be able to pigeonhole someone into a category that you don't like just because he disagrees with you. I was being SARCASTIC, or didn't that come through? Or maybe you do think that it will eventually happen? I noticed that you said "crazy ideas here that will never happen in out life time. " The implication of that statement is that it COULD happen. I just happen to think that this case makes it that much more likely that it WILL happen. So tell me, what is your solution? You have a newborn infant that will need to be fed by a tube from DAY 1. What are you going to do? Treat it like some bad Xerox copy and say 'oh well, try again.' And please, get off this Religious Right nonsense. This is MY Opinion--I don't base it on what GOD told me, I base it on the common sense that God GAVE ME.
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 12:09:02 GMT -6
Okay Dan tell me please where Bob said that. Nobody here and nobody out in the public has ever said that is going to happen. This is one case that stands out by itself. I don't see a waiting list or take a number line. Could you please explain your statement and were this information came from? ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) And were may I ask are the right to lifers going to get this money? Is it going to come out of their personal pocket? Are they saying they are going to pay for then have the state do it? Joe. First of all, that was not a statement. It ended with a question mark, which means it was a question. I was asking for clarification on the interpretation of what's going on here. If it were a statement, I would have backed it up. You state "Nobody here and nobody out in the public has ever said that is going to happen. " So why does THIS have to happen now? As for who is going to pay for it, pay for what? You haven't clearly communicated what you mean. Do you mean Terri's medical bills? The starvation of the 'sub-normal' children? (in the case of the latter, I would think that if you're no longer feeding the kid, you'd be SAVING money, wouldn't you?)
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 12:29:52 GMT -6
From the Christian perspective: If God doesn't want her to die, he won't let her. Let this lady go. Maybe he is ready for her to be in heaven and is guiding the judges decision. After all he is all powerful, all knowing. Why is death so frightening? Especially to the believers. This isn't a murder, this is simply letting one go back from whence they came. It is nature and natural, albeit I DO wish Dr. Kevorkian could be there to make it quick. Being able to die when I want gives me great comfort in getting old. I hope Dr. assisted suicide is the norm at that time, but if not, non-tradititional methods work just as well. What is life if you can't live? Please answer this? What is life if you can't live it?? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Terri lived in a vaccum. I thought that the nurses, doctors and most of all the mother and father, LOVED her. Maybe God wants her to live so that people who love her can take care of her. Maybe God wants them to take care of her so that others who see the love and compassion that these people show to take care of her will be inspired to take care of others in need. Maybe she's being saved as an example. But no, she's a vegetable, right? A useless, good for nothing vegetable. (that part was sarcasm again.)
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 12:39:31 GMT -6
Cripes, here we go with this 'Religious Right' bullshit again. Ain't it nice to be able to pigeonhole someone into a category that you don't like just because he disagrees with you. I was being SARCASTIC, or didn't that come through? Or maybe you do think that it will eventually happen? I noticed that you said "crazy ideas here that will never happen in out life time. " The implication of that statement is that it COULD happen. I just happen to think that this case makes it that much more likely that it WILL happen. So tell me, what is your solution? You have a newborn infant that will need to be fed by a tube from DAY 1. What are you going to do? Treat it like some bad Xerox copy and say 'oh well, try again.' And please, get off this Religious Right nonsense. This is MY Opinion--I don't base it on what GOD told me, I base it on the common sense that God GAVE ME. Sarcastic or not the way you are flying off the handle about this makes it seems like you belong to the religious right. Yes I know you said you do not and I believe you. But saying some of the stuff you have......... makes on wounder. Again IMHO. The only one talking about starving infants and saying oops lets try again is you. That's just plan ass nuts to even consider there pal let along bring it up as a comparison.Who in the fuck ever said to starve infants? Oh yeah the only was was you. Newborn are not the issue here. Maybe you better talked to God again and have him give you another shot of common sense. Hopefully it's an 800 number. Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 12:45:51 GMT -6
You state "Nobody here and nobody out in the public has ever said that is going to happen. " So why does THIS have to happen now? As for who is going to pay for it, pay for what? You haven't clearly communicated what you mean. Do you mean Terri's medical bills? The starvation of the 'sub-normal' children? (in the case of the latter, I would think that if you're no longer feeding the kid, you'd be SAVING money, wouldn't you?) To your first question. Shit happens, and it's happing now, today, get over it, it's out of your control, that's why it's happening. Secondly put on your glasses I asked where are the right to lifers going to get the money to pay for it. You are the one that said they are willing to pay for it. The medical bills there buddy? There rest or your reply was totally ridiculous and does not even deserve a response. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) Joe.
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 12:46:25 GMT -6
Great question Deborah. Is living just laying there with tubes in you to keep you going? Those of you that do not agree with what is happening to Terri, please answer those questions. Would you want to lay there not knowing what is going on day after day like that? Joe. No, living is not living by just laying there with tubes in you to keep you going. But then again, neither is it living if you're so old and senile that you have no sense of reality, where you have to be taken to the bathroom, you have to be fed in order to survive. Is it living if you are so mentally impaired that you cannot live on your own and be self sufficient? Do you see where I'm going? Where do we draw the line? How mentally deficient do you have to be in order to be staved to death? That's what I don't understand. What guidelines are people using?
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 12:48:07 GMT -6
Maybe God wants her to live so that people who love her can take care of her. Maybe God wants them to take care of her so that others who see the love and compassion that these people show to take care of her will be inspired to take care of others in need. Maybe she's being saved as an example. And you say you are not part of the Religious Right? What are you a preacher? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 12:53:14 GMT -6
Where do we draw the line? Each person is a seperate issue and it should remain that way. If a person wants to end their life because of a terminal illness so be it. It is no one else's business. Fuck the Government and any right to lifer or any one else that say s you can't. What are they going to do put you in jail if you kill yourself? Joe.
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 13:00:41 GMT -6
And you say you are not part of the Religious Right? What are you a preacher? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) Joe. So....just because I have a religion, that means I don't have my own opinion? No, I'm not a preacher. Why does the mere mention of GOD scare you?
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 13:10:38 GMT -6
Each person is a seperate issue and it should remain that way. If a person wants to end their life because of a terminal illness so be it. It is no one else's business. Fuck the Government and any right to lifer or any one else that say s you can't. No argument there. If its YOUR WISH, then go ahead and do what you like. I don't believe that anyone has the right to decide anyone else's DEATH. I do not believe that Mr. Schaivo knew Terri's wishes beyond a resonable doubt. He's flip-flopped too many times on what he remembers Terri saying about the subject. That WAS sarcasm, right?
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 13:15:24 GMT -6
From the Christian perspective: If God doesn't want her to die, he won't let her. Let this lady go. Maybe he is ready for her to be in heaven and is guiding the judges decision. After all he is all powerful, all knowing. Let me guess...when you give to the Church, you throw your money up into the air, and say "God, what ever you want, you keep, whatever falls on the ground is mine", right? ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 13:16:58 GMT -6
So....just because I have a religion, that means I don't have my own opinion? No, I'm not a preacher. Why does the mere mention of GOD scare you? Let's get a couple of things straight here. 1. Nobody said you don't have you own opinon, I just question it?. That's my right. I have nothing against people that have religion. If it blows your skirt up go for it , break a leg. I will stop there because that is another whole can of worms for me, and we don't want to go their. 2. I am glad you are not a preacher and I knew that. Just being a smart ass. 3. No, the mere mention of God does not scare me. Just because I am not a religious person does not mean that someone mentioning God scares me. Just that basing decissions on religion such as in this issue, just doesn't do it for me. Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 13:18:12 GMT -6
Let me guess...when you give to the Church, you throw your money up into the air, and say "God, what ever you want, you keep, whatever falls on the ground is mine", right? ;D ;D No I do that with the Government. ;D ;D Joe.
|
|
|
Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 25, 2005 13:21:03 GMT -6
I don't believe that anyone has the right to decide anyone else's DEATH. That WAS sarcasm, right? Wrong, if I get to a point were I can no longer make my own decision medically, it then becomes my wife's. After 30 years she knows what I want without any doubt. ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) and vise a versa. That's they way it should be. Yeah it was sarcasm!!!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Joe.
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 13:26:50 GMT -6
Wrong, if I get to a point were I can no longer make my own decision medically, it then becomes my wife's. After 30 years she knows what I want without any doubt. ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) and vise a versa. That's they way it should be. Yeah it was sarcasm!!!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Joe. Ah-Ah-Ah....you can't say that I'm wrong. I said "I BELIEVE that no one has the right to decide..." It was an opinion, which is neither right nor wrong...its just an opinion. Sarcasm too!
|
|
|
Post by Hedo69 on Mar 25, 2005 13:30:34 GMT -6
Dan, I have no idea where your vacuum idea came from. It is ok to let a loved one die, we all die. WE ALL DIE.
If god wants her to live, she won’t die. Simple, eh?
Then why make this poor woman suffer longer? Why?? Do we really need this as an example of human love and kindness? It really ISN’T human love and kindness. It is keeping someone going for our own selfish benefit, even if it is guided in love.
The mention of god scares me not, although I realize you were talking to Joe and not me. That is an attempt to place your own fears elsewhere. As you state, pigeon-holing doesn’t work in this direction either. How are you seeing fear from this?
You are incorrect. She gave these rights to Mr. Schaivo the day she married him. When a person marries, they CLEAVE to the other and become one. He has stood by her trying to do right by her for 15 goddamn years and I for one, am damned impressed.
|
|
|
Post by danimal on Mar 25, 2005 13:31:37 GMT -6
No I do that with the Government. ;D ;D Joe. The only problem is that the Government DOES take it out of the air, and as Jake said, they only took 2% at first, now they take 1/3....sliding slope....sliding slope.
|
|