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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 21:06:51 GMT -6
Here's another of many random thoughts I've had the past couple of days: Has the irony hit anyone on THIS message board that the name of the school where this occurred was Sandy Hook? Yeah, it was in Connecticut and not New Jersey, but still ...
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 21:22:24 GMT -6
Sorry Simon, I had a brain fart and momentarily forgot that your mom lives in England, not the States.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 21:24:21 GMT -6
Why do the police inspect the shotgun cabinet? Here lots of folks sleep with a shotgun under the bed. You can buy a shotgun at a garage sale. BTW, have I thanked you lately for giving us such great political minds as George W. Bush and Rick Perry? No, I guess I haven't. Nor will I. Beeb, you don't have to thank me - I know you are feeling it in your heart.
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Dec 17, 2012 21:58:36 GMT -6
Three times as many people die in this country from auto accidents than gun homicides. Three times as many from poisonings. Twice as many from falls. All of these deaths are unintentional. Please talk to me about the cost to society of those deaths before anyone moans about a few people dying at the hands of a nitwit.
By the way, almost every "mass" shooting but one over the past, say, 50 years has occurred in a "gun free" zone. So much for laws. Yet fucking stupid lib'rul Loons are calling for MORE laws that criminals will ignore as they find ways to kill.
We need ARMED guards in schools with but one way in and out - through those guards. Pass all the fucking laws you want, it won't stop criminals who could give a shit about laws. You FUCK THEM before they fuck the innocent.
Simple, really.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 18, 2012 1:26:19 GMT -6
In the spirit of "Nobody else will say it," here is my take:
Yes, it's sad that a bunch of rug-rats got wasted. But is it really a net negative in the long run? The reason this happened is because we, as Americans, cherish FREEDOM more than we crave safety. Think about it: a small loss of life is the price we pay for a huge freedom (the freedom to defend oneself) for every American citizen.
Yes, it is a trade-off. Some folks in other countries may have different priorities, and that's fine. Some in this country have different priorities. But we, as a nation, overall, do not. We would rather lose a few innocent lives each year than give up EVERYONE'S freedom to bear arms, just to prevent that loss.
Yes, it's a judgement call. You give up something to get something. Before you think I'm totally cold-blooded, think about this: if we totally banned automobiles, we would save thousands of lives per year. But we don't, because we deem the loss of lives to auto accidents to be an acceptable trade-off for the convenience of traveling in cars. It's the same thing.
I believe the status quo, with respect to gun ownership, represents the preference of the average American. You can disagree with that all you like, and you can find it distasteful of me to put it this bluntly, but that doesn't make it incorrect. And that is why nothing is going to ch-ch-change. We already have the balance that the average American citizen wants.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 6:15:47 GMT -6
I double dog dare you to send that in to the Chicago Tribune or any TV station in Chicago without the "Fox" label on it... or better yet, send that in to the New Town Bee newspaper Let me know if you do, I will need to buy the Cheetos.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 7:51:11 GMT -6
Free Market Solution- EVERY homicide/suicide/accidental shooting that involves a gun costs us taxpayers $$$.
Stick with me here to the finish.
Require gun owners to have insurance to cover the costs associated with any of the above. The insurance company would set the rates based on an inspection of how you store your gun, just like they inspect your house for fire insurance. You keep the guns locked up in a gun club locker, probably very cheap insurance. If you keep the gun under you bed with no locks, a lot higher. If you have a certificate of gun training, cheaper. If you have a recent psych test, cheaper. The insurance company would be required to microchip the gun as proof that it has been inspected and its "lockup" status confirmed.
That is the simple part.
Now how this effects the bad guy. To buy a gun, ammunition, or the components to make ammunition you must present your certificate of insurance. This certificate would be like a passport with high security chips that make it difficult to forge. For the seller to not validate possession of this certificate would be a felony.
Yes it would still be possible for the bad guys to sell this stuff on the street, but it would make it more difficult for the street sellers to get the materials, and it would therefore drive up the cost on the street for the illegal purchase, a good thing.
For the person holding the certificate, the background check has been done, and that part of current law could be repealed, they have been preapproved.
Possession of a gun without a microchip, a felony.
Since all of this would be done by the insurance companies, the government would not be involved in the registration of the guns.
Edited: AND the insurance company would be responsible for all of the investigation and clean up costs of all gun related violence/suicide/accidents.
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Post by Tex on Dec 18, 2012 8:14:56 GMT -6
Gordon, nitpicking to death is just going to make criminals out if millions who wouldn't harm a flea and add another felony charge on top of the other 158 felony charges that didn't deter the mass murderer. California requires a medical certificate to legally purchase marijuana (I know - my resourceful eldest son managed to get one) but weed is readily available without one.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 8:23:20 GMT -6
once again, its too hard to do anything, so lets do nothing.
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Post by Tex on Dec 18, 2012 8:31:10 GMT -6
"Let's do something" rather than "let's do something effective" is about smugness and feeling good rather than saving lives. JMHO
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 8:49:50 GMT -6
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 9:00:35 GMT -6
They are TOUGH when they have guns but... UPDATE: there is a new nationalrifleassociation page up on Facebook.. not set up by the NRA with 4 likes
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Post by New Mama on Dec 18, 2012 9:06:14 GMT -6
. Require gun owners to have insurance to cover the costs associated with any of the above. The insurance company would set the rates based on an inspection of how you store your gun, just like they inspect your house for fire insurance. That is the simple part. To buy a gun, you must present your certificate of insurance. This idea has some merit but how do you buy a gun if your can't get an insurance certificate based on your home inspection requirement above?
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 18, 2012 9:08:08 GMT -6
Yes, it's a judgement call. You give up something to get something. Before you think I'm totally cold-blooded, think about this: if we totally banned automobiles, we would save thousands of lives per year. But we don't, because we deem the loss of lives to auto accidents to be an acceptable trade-off for the convenience of traveling in cars. It's the same thing. No, it's not. It is neither the design nor intent of cars to hurt or kill. Guns, on the other hand, are designed with that intention. Did you really need someone to explain this to you?
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 18, 2012 9:09:59 GMT -6
. Require gun owners to have insurance to cover the costs associated with any of the above. The insurance company would set the rates based on an inspection of how you store your gun, just like they inspect your house for fire insurance. That is the simple part. To buy a gun, you must present your certificate of insurance. This idea has some merit but how do you buy a gun if your can't get an insurance certificate based on your home inspection requirement above?It's a pre-requisite to the purchase. I can't buy a car without insurance or a drivers license.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 9:12:43 GMT -6
Anita- That is where the free market is involved. Improve your house to the standards that, say, the NRA promotes, locked storage and mechanical locking devices. OR store at a gun club locker.
Or improve the situation to whatever level the insurance company is willing to insure and you can afford... whatever suits your pocketbook
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 18, 2012 9:16:58 GMT -6
Free Market Solution- EVERY homicide/suicide/accidental shooting that involves a gun costs us taxpayers $$$. Love this idea, BTW.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 18, 2012 9:21:30 GMT -6
OK, I get it. You have an inspection and show them where you would store the gun if you could buy one. I can think of some major issues with this plan but maybe they could be worked out. I would think that insurance companies would have justifiable issues with rejecting claims not knowing if the owner in fact stored the gun where the owner claimed or in the case of an accidental shooting when cleaning a gun due to stupidity. Suicide? What would the insurance company have to pay for?
I don't see the insurance industry getting into this business.
While were at it I say we require a test and issue a license to have a baby.
PS. Actually, I can buy a car without insurance or a drivers license I just can't drive it off the lot.
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Post by Irish Stu on Dec 18, 2012 9:27:43 GMT -6
My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!' Simon, what do you know of "illegal" guns where you are? Or is such a concept even inconceivable? We have a problem with illegal guns in our criminal underworld and street gangs in our cities. This used to be shotguns but these days handguns are the weapon of choice... coming into the country from the USA and Eastern Europe. A few years ago I was at a party in a private club in London and found myself talking to the former leader of a notorious firm (gang) of football hooligans. He had supposedly changed his ways and was working in schools helping children avoid making the mistakes he has made. He has also written several books about his football hooligan career. Within twenty minutes of meeting he was asking my friend and I if we were interested in distributing illegal handguns for him.
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Post by Irish Stu on Dec 18, 2012 9:32:43 GMT -6
As you say Tex, they weren't his guns, they were his mother's. So he should never have been able to get his hands on them. And even though he had autism-related Asperger's Syndrome this 'gun enthusiast' mother of his taught him how to shoot and failed to keep her mini arsenal of weaponry secure from him. My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!' Why do the police inspect the shotgun cabinet? Here lots of folks sleep with a shotgun under the bed. You can buy a shotgun at a garage sale They inspect it to ensure that it is still secure, that the guns that it contains are the ones that are registered to him, that he hasn't sawn the barrells off (sawn-off shotguns are illegal here as they used to be the gun of choice in robberies before so many illegal handguns came into the country), that he is still of sound enough mind to hold a firearms license....
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Post by New Mama on Dec 18, 2012 9:32:45 GMT -6
Yea, and thanks for Jimmy Carter and Lyndon Johnson.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 9:41:19 GMT -6
OK, I get it. You have an inspection and show them where you would store the gun if you could buy one. I can think of some major issues with this plan but maybe they could be worked out. I would think that insurance companies would have justifiable issues with rejecting claims not knowing if the owner in fact stored the gun where the owner claimed or in the case of an accidental shooting when cleaning a gun due to stupidity. Suicide? What would the insurance company have to pay for? I don't see the insurance industry getting into this business. While were at it I say we require a test and issue a license to have a baby. PS. Actually, I can buy a car without insurance or a drivers license I just can't drive it off the lot. Insurance companies avoid a marketplace to potentially make money, are you kidding?? They would probably be falling over themselves to get into the market.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 18, 2012 9:45:16 GMT -6
I DO BELIEVE THIS. If NOTHING happens, I get the distinct impression from what I am hearing, that the gun manufacturing industry *could* be the next cigarette manufacturing industry.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 18, 2012 10:13:09 GMT -6
PS. Actually, I can buy a car without insurance or a drivers license I just can't drive it off the lot. The difference is in state laws, apparently. I have never been able to get the keys without proof of insurance or drivers license.
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Post by Irish Stu on Dec 18, 2012 10:36:06 GMT -6
The reason this happened is because we, as Americans, cherish FREEDOM more than we crave safety. Think about it: a small loss of life is the price we pay for a huge freedom (the freedom to defend oneself) for every American citizen. Yes, it is a trade-off. Some folks in other countries may have different priorities, and that's fine Jake, I have the right to defend myself too, just not the right to use a gun to do it... even if I had a license to own them. I keep a baseball bat under my bed and a hunting knife in my bedside table to defend myself in my home, and I have brandished them when confronting a burglar. Do you really believe you are any freer than me because you could have used a gun in that situation? Personally I support the viewpoint that you can own a gun to defend yourself against an armed aggressor, but possession of any weapon, be it a gun, bow and arrow, or kitchen knife is not about freedom. I could equally argue that perhaps because handguns and semi-automatic weapons are illegal here and almost impossible to get hold of unless you have the right criminal underworld contacts, and ownership of legal guns is strictly enforced, my chances, and my children's chances, of being killed in a massacre by the local nutter who has headed to a school or theater with a small arsenal are almost non-existent. Maybe that makes me the free one? FWIW I was brought up around guns and was shooting from an early age. In fact I last fired one four or five weeks ago. So I fully understand their attraction, but I also know that if I never held a gun again I wouldn’t lose any sleep about it.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 18, 2012 12:44:27 GMT -6
I don't see the insurance industry getting into this business. Insurance companies avoid a marketplace to potentially make money, are you kidding?? They would probably be falling over themselves to get into the market.[/quote] I guess it depends on what you're thinking they would pay for. What would they pay in the instance of a suicide? A murder? An armed robbery? You mentioned we pay a lot of tax $$$'s with gun related crime. Just what would you pass onto the insurance companies?
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 18, 2012 13:34:41 GMT -6
This idea has some merit but how do you buy a gun if your can't get an insurance certificate based on your home inspection requirement above? It's a pre-requisite to the purchase. I can't buy a car without insurance or a drivers license.So cars and guns ARE comparable now, are they? Interesting......
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 18, 2012 13:36:09 GMT -6
Free Market Solution- EVERY homicide/suicide/accidental shooting that involves a gun costs us taxpayers $$$. Stick with me here to the finish. Require gun owners to have insurance to cover the costs associated with any of the above. The insurance company would set the rates based on an inspection of how you store your gun, just like they inspect your house for fire insurance. You keep the guns locked up in a gun club locker, probably very cheap insurance. If you keep the gun under you bed with no locks, a lot higher. If you have a certificate of gun training, cheaper. If you have a recent psych test, cheaper. The insurance company would be required to microchip the gun as proof that it has been inspected and its "lockup" status confirmed. That is the simple part. Now how this effects the bad guy. To buy a gun, ammunition, or the components to make ammunition you must present your certificate of insurance. This certificate would be like a passport with high security chips that make it difficult to forge. For the seller to not validate possession of this certificate would be a felony. Yes it would still be possible for the bad guys to sell this stuff on the street, but it would make it more difficult for the street sellers to get the materials, and it would therefore drive up the cost on the street for the illegal purchase, a good thing. For the person holding the certificate, the background check has been done, and that part of current law could be repealed, they have been preapproved. Possession of a gun without a microchip, a felony. Since all of this would be done by the insurance companies, the government would not be involved in the registration of the guns. Edited: AND the insurance company would be responsible for all of the investigation and clean up costs of all gun related violence/suicide/accidents. I like it. It probably needs a few tweaks, but overall this is the proper approach.
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Post by Tex on Dec 18, 2012 14:38:38 GMT -6
Anita- That is where the free market is involved. Improve your house to the standards that, say, the NRA promotes, locked storage and mechanical locking devices. OR store at a gun club locker. Or improve the situation to whatever level the insurance company is willing to insure and you can afford... whatever suits your pocketbook So the wealthy have a right to bear arms, but the working poor, who often have no choice but to live in rough neighborhoods, cannot?
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Post by Tex on Dec 18, 2012 14:39:41 GMT -6
This idea has some merit but how do you buy a gun if your can't get an insurance certificate based on your home inspection requirement above? It's a pre-requisite to the purchase. I can't buy a car without insurance or a drivers license. You don't have a constitutional right to be able to own a car.
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