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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 15, 2012 16:43:53 GMT -6
Actually, here is the real solution to the problem: stop publishing these miscreant's names.
Why do these incidents happen? Because people who think they are victims decide to stop being victims, and to be the avenging angel. Sure, they know they'll be dead (usually at their own hand) and unable to enjoy the martyrdom, but they also know that they will be FAMOUS, will be written up in every paper and discussed on television for weeks. The lure of fame is more than enough to overcome their fear of death.
So.... stop making them martyrs and anti-heroes. Don't publish their name, don't show their hometown or their weeping parents. Bury them anonymously. And the allure of becoming the next Columbine-style folk hero will vanish.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 17:33:38 GMT -6
Whether or not that would work is questionable. While in theory it may be a reasonable idea, in practice, however, it would be hard to get all of the media to cooperate. That's the reality.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 15, 2012 18:59:24 GMT -6
Bullshit. Journalists refrain from publishing lots of things when it is in the best interest of society. Victims names when the family has not been notified yet. Victims names in sexual assaults. And exit poll results while the polls are still open. They just need to agree that this is important, and make it a policy. It might not work, but I'll bet it would.
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 21:09:53 GMT -6
It may not but it is probably worth asking why my generation had loaded guns everywhere with few problems (and that isn't to say no problems) and why there are so many problems today. I suspect that even the best of solutions will be far from perfect. I am certainly no gun buff and don't know that buying assault weapons over the Internet was what the framers intended. Why teenagers would feel the need to carry loaded guns with them anywhere -- much less school -- is something that's hard to grasp. Peer pressure in a dysfunctional environment would probably be a good guess. ...or they like to hunt after school.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 16, 2012 11:58:35 GMT -6
Bullshit. Journalists refrain from publishing lots of things when it is in the best interest of society. Victims names when the family has not been notified yet. Victims names in sexual assaults. And exit poll results while the polls are still open. They just need to agree that this is important, and make it a policy. It might not work, but I'll bet it would. Big difference: in the examples you cite, the withholding of such information is temporary; what you're suggesting is that it should be permanent. I just don't think that's a realistic expectation.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 16, 2012 12:55:13 GMT -6
Why teenagers would feel the need to carry loaded guns with them anywhere -- much less school -- is something that's hard to grasp. Peer pressure in a dysfunctional environment would probably be a good guess. ...or they like to hunt after school. Fine. But it still doesn't address why someone would bring a loaded rifle to school.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 16, 2012 13:19:56 GMT -6
Why teenagers would feel the need to carry loaded guns with them anywhere -- much less school -- is something that's hard to grasp. Peer pressure in a dysfunctional environment would probably be a good guess. ...or they like to hunt after school. I assume that was only during hunting season then.. depending of course on what was in season
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Post by Tex on Dec 16, 2012 13:31:02 GMT -6
Times have changed here too, but at the time, guns just didn't carry any baggage with them. I don't know if you have spent much time in Texas, but think foreign culture from New York - and generally the guns weren't loaded (or at least nothing in the chamber) but probably a box of shells was in the glove box. I never was a hunter, but carried pocket knives and a tackle box to school. It didn't seem much different.
As an adult, I have carried a pistol when I had business in a dicy venue. I am convinced that it saved my life at least once.
The population density of big urban areas ch-ch-changes people and I understand that what works in a town where thick pine forest is never more than two minutes away is a different animal than NYC.
A thorough background check of someone wanting to purchase certain types of weapons seems reasonable.
Texas is not the most gun happy state in the US (Florida has a smaller population and more concealed carry permits) and there are quite a few restrictions. (Just carrying a gun into a bar is five years in prison and they mean business).
Banning certain weapons will not prevent the determined nutcase from getting them. Restricting them by slowing down the process might prevent someone who was temporarily deranged and snapped out of it or at least give someone a chance to lose their nerve or have a ch-ch-change of heart. IMHO, threats of prison etc. are ineffective against someone who has decided to go out in a blaze of glory anyway.
IMHO, this problem is not going away anytime soon. You might chip away at it by making the tools harder to obtain, but the culture of violence and celebrity worship feeds this and we should examine that aspect for a long term solution. Kids that grow up blowing people's guts out in the video game and getting off to the cop killer music are generally able to discern between bullshit and life, but there have been exceptions to that as we have seen.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 16, 2012 15:05:03 GMT -6
CA has some tough gun laws. A waiting period and back ground check and training classes if you have not hand them for both hand guns and rifles. You can just walk into a sporting good store and buy a shotgun with you Drivers License.
We used to carry our rifles and shotguns on racks in the back window of the p/u as long as they were not loaded. Know days you cannnot do that any longer, they must be in the back of the p/u in a case unloaded.
The laws need to hit hard at the assault weapons. All guns can do lot of damage but the assault weapons are the ones that all of the crackers use so we do need to get them off of the street.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 16, 2012 20:10:04 GMT -6
As far as Obama's speech in Newtown is concerned, I wish he had cut out all of that religious nonsense and instead used the opportunity to tell it like it is -- he's had 4 mass murders in his first term as president and they didn't come from bow & arrow. Again, he cowers to the NRA and is afraid to actually say the word "guns".
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 16, 2012 20:38:56 GMT -6
Emilie Parker, who was 6, was one of the kids that died Friday. Her family just released this photo.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 17, 2012 0:07:31 GMT -6
As far as Obama's speech in Newtown is concerned, I wish he had cut out all of that religious nonsense and instead used the opportunity to tell it like it is -- he's had 4 mass murders in his first term as president and they didn't come from bow & arrow. Again, he cowers to the NRA and is afraid to actually say the word "guns". How do we know he isn't the cause of the problems?
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 6:18:55 GMT -6
Westboro Baptist Church is looking to get on the scene to picket. Assholes. Anonymous hacks back.. COOL
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 7:06:31 GMT -6
As far as Obama's speech in Newtown is concerned, I wish he had cut out all of that religious nonsense and instead used the opportunity to tell it like it is -- he's had 4 mass murders in his first term as president and they didn't come from bow & arrow. Again, he cowers to the NRA and is afraid to actually say the word "guns". How do we know he isn't the cause of the problems?Oh joy... a conspiracy theorist ... and W knew that there were planes headed to the Twin Towers and did nothing? really? or is this just a red herring to spin the thread?
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 7:47:46 GMT -6
Westboro Baptist Church is looking to get on the scene to picket. Assholes. Anonymous hacks back.. COOLWestboro is batting a thousand as usual.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 9:51:52 GMT -6
A very sad, heart wrenching event. I don't agree with banning guns but I do agree with stringent rules for owning any firearm, including an extensive psychological test at the buyers expense. No reason to rush the purchase of a weapon.
People collect cars that go faster than any road allows. Likewise some people collect guns for the love of the machine. Banning is not the answer. Control and knowledge is the answer.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 10:04:17 GMT -6
Meanwhile, a congressman from (surprise!) Texas says that the teachers should be armed!
Where in the world does the Republican Army find these neanderthals?
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 10:44:35 GMT -6
Not a bad idea. Arming our teachers...with proper training of course...may deter or at least make them think twice before some of the crazies out there enter a school or public place with murderous plans or at least gun them down before dozens of more children get murdered.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 10:46:20 GMT -6
I believe you believe this -- and therein lies the problem.
If better trained military and police wind up having friendly fire incidents, how many more do you think teachers will have? And around kids? Please!
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 10:53:16 GMT -6
That entire idea gives the police nothing more than figuring out which of the multiple targets they should take down first.
BTW Anita- WHO is going to pay for training the teachers and buying their weapons, the taxpayers? I doubt most conservatives would ante up the $$, maybe the overpaid teachers should be mandated to pay for their own defensive systems and the training... and their family required to soak up the cost for their funeral after being victim of "friendly fire".
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 11:02:00 GMT -6
Let their union pay for it -- unless it gets busted by the state government.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 11:09:16 GMT -6
Prohibition has never worked. It didn't work with booze it only created crooks and gangs. It doesn't work for drugs either. Control and tax.
What makes you think banning guns will work to stop the murder of children? Taking guns away from the good guys only leaves the guns in the hands of the bad guys. The horse is already out of the barn my friend. The guns are already out there. I'd love to blink my eyes and have all the guns gone. Only then would a gun ban work. Ugly but that is the reality.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 11:15:27 GMT -6
That entire idea gives the police nothing more than figuring out which of the multiple targets they should take down first. BTW Anita- WHO is going to pay for training the teachers and buying their weapons, the taxpayers? I doubt most conservatives would ante up the $$, maybe the overpaid teachers should be mandated to pay for their own defensive systems and the training... and their family required to soak up the cost for their funeral after being victim of "friendly fire". This tax paying righty is willing to pay to arm and train our teachers against future gun toting crazies. War will always suffer friendly fire but that doesn't stop the war we need to wage against anyone who enters a school with the intent to kill kids.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 12:10:36 GMT -6
Prohibition has never worked. It didn't work with booze it only created crooks and gangs. It doesn't work for drugs either. Control and tax. What makes you think banning guns will work to stop the murder of children? Taking guns away from the good guys only leaves the guns in the hands of the bad guys. The horse is already out of the barn my friend. The guns are already out there. I'd love to blink my eyes and have all the guns gone. Only then would a gun ban work. Ugly but that is the reality. It worked in Austrailia since 1996, and it has worked in Medellin, Columbia since 2003. OTOH- We have about 300,000,000 guns in this nation already, almost 1 per person. If that isnt enough, how many do we need? 400,000,000 ? 500,000,000? HOW MANY WILL BRING SAFETY?
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 12:12:55 GMT -6
That entire idea gives the police nothing more than figuring out which of the multiple targets they should take down first. BTW, the plan is that the offender will be dead before the police even arrive. Their is no perfect infallible answer but I do think a good deal of the violence occurs against unarmed citizens being easy targets. I don't think I've heard of a gun toting loony waking into a police station to shoot-um up.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 12:23:23 GMT -6
Meanwhile, a congressman from (surprise!) Texas says that the teachers should be armed! Where in the world does the Republican Army find these neanderthals? I know this guy and like him. If the teachers had been packing heat, this might well have been a much less tragic day.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 12:24:06 GMT -6
Anita, those ideas are the ideas that weve been fed for the past 20 years. They do not work, they will never work.
We have to get the guns out of the hands of the nutcases by having psych tests before you can buy a gun, we have to have training tests like we have for cars.
We have to have comprehensive registration of guns, like we have for cars.
We have to have to completely eliminate clips that hold more than 5-10 rounds, so a nutcase cant walk into a room and kill everyone in a matter of seconds before reloading (and that points to the fallacy of your argument for arming the Principal, right now it can be all over with before anyone can react).
We HAVE to outlaw assault rifles of all kinds. They only serve on purpose, killing people.
We HAVE to outlaw the sale of body armor to civilians.
We HAVE to outlaw the sale of armor piercing rounds to civilians.
We HAVE to eliminate the gun show loophole and end the sale of guns through the internet (on the grounds of eliminating a terrorist threat if nothing else).
Hell, ONE IDIOT tries to set off a shoe bomb and everyone in the nation is required to take off their shoes to get on a plane.
There have been over 200,000 gun related deaths in this nation since 2000. What does it take to step back and realize that more guns are not the answer.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 12:24:56 GMT -6
Meanwhile, a congressman from (surprise!) Texas says that the teachers should be armed! Where in the world does the Republican Army find these neanderthals? I know this guy and like him. If the teachers had been packing heat, this might well have been a much less tragic day. ... or more.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 12:40:00 GMT -6
Prohibition has never worked. It didn't work with booze it only created crooks and gangs. It doesn't work for drugs either. Control and tax. What makes you think banning guns will work to stop the murder of children? Taking guns away from the good guys only leaves the guns in the hands of the bad guys. The horse is already out of the barn my friend. The guns are already out there. I'd love to blink my eyes and have all the guns gone. Only then would a gun ban work. Ugly but that is the reality. Rather that we spend triple, quadruple, quintuple OR MORE to catch the bad guys then.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 12:52:53 GMT -6
Prohibition has never worked. It didn't work with booze it only created crooks and gangs. It doesn't work for drugs either. Control and tax. What makes you think banning guns will work to stop the murder of children? Taking guns away from the good guys only leaves the guns in the hands of the bad guys. The horse is already out of the barn my friend. The guns are already out there. I'd love to blink my eyes and have all the guns gone. Only then would a gun ban work. Ugly but that is the reality. It worked in Austrailia since 1996, and it has worked in Medellin, Columbia since 2003. OTOH- We have about 300,000,000 guns in this nation already, almost 1 per person. If that isnt enough, how many do we need? 400,000,000 ? 500,000,000? HOW MANY WILL BRING SAFETY? Well I just looked up Australia's murder rate and question your sources. www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.htmlwww.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.htmlMedellin, Columbia murder rate... colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/9110-medellin-murder-rate-up-50-in-2010.htmlWe have lots of guns but most are not in the urban areas where these latest tragedies have occurred. Most urban areas have the most restrictive gun laws. You must be a licensed PI, policeman or licensed security employee to have a gun in the City of Chicago, yet we have one of the highest if not the highest murder rate in the country. Banning guns does not work here.
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