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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 12:53:27 GMT -6
BTW, who's talking about taking guns away from anyone? Or banning guns altogether?
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 12:54:33 GMT -6
Rather that we spend triple, quadruple, quintuple OR MORE to catch the bad guys then. OK by me.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 12:57:31 GMT -6
Anita, those ideas are the ideas that weve been fed for the past 20 years. They do not work, they will never work. We have to get the guns out of the hands of the nutcases by having psych tests before you can buy a gun, we have to have training tests like we have for cars. We have to have comprehensive registration of guns, like we have for cars. We have to have to completely eliminate clips that hold more than 5-10 rounds, so a nutcase cant walk into a room and kill everyone in a matter of seconds before reloading (and that points to the fallacy of your argument for arming the Principal, right now it can be all over with before anyone can react). We HAVE to outlaw assault rifles of all kinds. They only serve on purpose, killing people. We HAVE to outlaw the sale of body armor to civilians. We HAVE to outlaw the sale of armor piercing rounds to civilians. We HAVE to eliminate the gun show loophole and end the sale of guns through the internet (on the grounds of eliminating a terrorist threat if nothing else). Hell, ONE IDIOT tries to set off a shoe bomb and everyone in the nation is required to take off their shoes to get on a plane. There have been over 200,000 gun related deaths in this nation since 2000. What does it take to step back and realize that more guns are not the answer. I don't disagree with strict control.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 13:08:08 GMT -6
So Anita, where do we differ?? I dont understand where your beef is. You agree with strict control, you agree with spending more on catching criminals. If those work, and it appears to me you believe that they would. Lets get on with it. Leave arming the school yards, if they do not. BTW- The last graph in your first citation on Australia proves my point. Homicides involving firearms as a percentage of total homicides, 1915-2003
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 13:31:29 GMT -6
I don't have statistics that show why Switzerland has low gun homicides despite high gun ownership, but consider this:
In international conflicts, Switzerland has a history of neutrality.
The U.S. ... mmm, not so much ...
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 17, 2012 13:53:23 GMT -6
Gordon three things that I don't really disagree with on your list. but find possible problems with them
We will never get every gun registered in the country. The ones that are not will be the ones that the nut cases go after. and that the black market sellers will sell.
I disagree with this one. Many parents and I personally know two couples that have done this. They purchased body armor for the sons in Afghanistan. The Army doesn't give it to so they bought it and sent it over.
I do not disagree at all with you on this one but if one of these nut case really wants a gun they can buy it from someone off the street.
Also what if some passes a psych test in 2014 but goes nuts with that gun in 2024?
All the idea are great and make sense but these three could be questionable.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 14:13:49 GMT -6
As to number one. I dont ever recall that "its difficult so we cant try" was a motto that this country ever adhered to. Just because it is difficult doesnt mean we shouldnt try.
Joe, on number two, i *think* that issue was corrected a long time ago, once word got out that parents were doing this for their kids over there. Even if it were still true, I could live with an exception, provided that the body armor was delivered directly to a soldier in arms in a war environment.
and to number three, we need to spend the $$$ to GET THEM OFF THE STREET. Above, Anita likened this situation to a war. If it is to be so then the front line SHOULD BE where these street vendors that you mention are, NOT the school yards. Take the fight to them and GET the bastards selling the guns to anyone.
When illegal vendors dont have guns or places to sell them, then outlaws wont have guns.
As to the psych test, dont you retake your drivers license test periodically? why should that be any different? Just make gun owners as responsible as car owners... BTW every police force in the nation makes their officers take (and retake) psych tests, are they more or less dangerous than anyone else? No. But cities, counties and states go the extra effort to make sure that THEY dont put a gun in the hands of a potential nutcase, why shouldnt society treat everyone else as such.
No one of these will work alone, just as the two halves of an epoxy is nothing more than some liquid goo. Put them all together, and like an epoxy, you have something pretty damn strong.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 14:18:33 GMT -6
Also, gun buy-back programs held by the police have been somewhat successful in that they wound up turning in quite a few guns ... but is that because the guys turning in the guns are just looking to upgrade?
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 14:25:57 GMT -6
So Anita, where do we differ?? I dont understand where your beef is. You agree with strict control, you agree with spending more on catching criminals. If those work, and it appears to me you believe that they would. Lets get on with it. Leave arming the school yards, if they do not. BTW- The last graph in your first citation on Australia proves my point. Homicides involving firearms as a percentage of total homicides, 1915-2003 Not really. The graph before the one you show here shows more detail on a year by year basis demonstrating large swings in the homicide rate since 1996.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 14:40:19 GMT -6
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 14:45:34 GMT -6
I would bet the gun buyback programs gets a bunch of ragged out sheet metal that hasn't been oiled in 20 years with the rifleing worn out. Junk, in other words.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 15:08:56 GMT -6
My understanding was that the guns in question were legally bought.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 17, 2012 15:13:40 GMT -6
Anita, you confuse the graphs. The penultimate graph is for ALL homicides, and shows a distinct downward trend, combined with the final graph which is the % of homicides by firearms down from upper 30's to upper teens, a 50% drop. BTW- notice that the TOTAL number of homicides in all of Australia is less than that of Chicago alone... sounds a helluva lot safer place. So Anita, where do we differ?? I dont understand where your beef is. You agree with strict control, you agree with spending more on catching criminals. If those work, and it appears to me you believe that they would. Lets get on with it. Leave arming the school yards, if they do not. BTW- The last graph in your first citation on Australia proves my point. Homicides involving firearms as a percentage of total homicides, 1915-2003 Not really. The graph before the one you show here shows more detail on a year by year basis demonstrating large swings in the homicide rate since 1996.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 15:23:43 GMT -6
I would bet the gun buyback programs gets a bunch of ragged out sheet metal that hasn't been oiled in 20 years with the rifleing worn out. Junk, in other words. I recall reading about some police officers getting caught turning in the same handgun multiple times. Few people turn in guns that are worth more than what is being offered.
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Post by New Mama on Dec 17, 2012 15:35:07 GMT -6
Again the graph is misleading due to the time frame covered beginning 1915. It does not highlight the time since 1996 well.
In any event yes, Australia is much safer than the US. That is one of the reasons my niece and her husband moved their from Houston about a year ago.
Keep in mind that Australia's population is also much smaller and that they control immigration most closely. I've been there 6 times and can attest that they have no ghettos, little to no gang problems and terrific school systems. Taxes are fairly high there and you must book your next doctor's appointment about a year in advance. My mom, sister and her family lived there between 1976 and 1989. I'd move there in a heartbeat if they would take me. Sadly, I'm too old.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 15:59:05 GMT -6
A hardline NRA advocate starts to thaw ... Keep the guns, ban the bullets.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 16:08:53 GMT -6
A hardline NRA advocate starts to thaw ... Keep the guns, ban the bullets. Bullets are too easy to load at home. I know at least a dozen guys who do this. The casings are reusable. Molding the actual bullets and loading the amount of powder for the intended use is a piece of cake. You could try banning the powder I guess but you can make it out of widely available chemicals. Even if everyone was too lazy to do all of this, the security on the Mexican border is a joke. Back when they used to deport wetbacks, some of the Mexicans that I knew would get back from Mexico quicker than the bus that took them there.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 16:19:03 GMT -6
Manchin's idea on magazine sizes might have some merit but you can swap out a magazine in a few seconds. Assault rifles? The difference between an assault rifle and a 30-06 deer rifle might provide an edge if you were fighting armed soldiers or a gang of home intruders, but for shooting defenseless little kids or unarmed movie patrons, what difference does it make?
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 17, 2012 16:43:51 GMT -6
I would bet the gun buyback programs gets a bunch of ragged out sheet metal that hasn't been oiled in 20 years with the rifleing worn out. Junk, in other words. I recall reading about some police officers getting caught turning in the same handgun multiple times. Few people turn in guns that are worth more than what is being offered. Also many police carry a back up weapon that the serial number has been filed off of. Another use of illegal guns.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 17, 2012 16:46:01 GMT -6
I would bet the gun buyback programs gets a bunch of ragged out sheet metal that hasn't been oiled in 20 years with the rifleing worn out. Junk, in other words. I think some them were a no question asked program.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 18:27:11 GMT -6
So far, the net-net result of this conversation results in maintaining the status quo: Do nothing.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 19:03:14 GMT -6
The only idea that I have heard that *might* be effective against this type of tragedy is putting armed guards and metal detectors at schools - expensive and PITA but maybe that is where we are. Cutting down magazine sizes and making it harder to buy assault weapons are not things that I have a beef with, but there is a temptation to "do something" after an episode like this, whether it is effective or not. We have a mental illness epidemic that no one wants to talk about.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 19:23:34 GMT -6
We have a mental illness epidemic that no one wants to talk about. Because of the stigma attached. Recall Sargent Shriver and Daniel Ellsberg. As I alluded to before, national healthcare would go a long way on this. Balance the cost of that against the cost of the lives of 20 first and second graders.
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 19:39:23 GMT -6
Fifty years ago, lots of mentally ill people were institutionalized. Maybe it went too far. That went out of vogue and most of those folks are on the street these days. Maybe we went too far the other way.
The killer in the Connecticut murders didn't really fit the bill to be committed. One thing frustrating about this is that you can't even really Monday morning quarterback on this one. The guns were purchased by his mother. She probably would have passed whatever background check you could come up with. The kid did not go really bonkers until this. It's hard to figure something that would have prevented this.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 20:11:04 GMT -6
And to the people who say, "Arm the teachers": The mother was armed. She was the first victim. Owning guns didn't do her very much good now, did they?
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Post by Irish Stu on Dec 17, 2012 20:13:56 GMT -6
The guns were purchased by his mother. She probably would have passed whatever background check you could come up with. The kid did not go really bonkers until this. It's hard to figure something that would have prevented this As you say Tex, they weren't his guns, they were his mother's. So he should never have been able to get his hands on them. And even though he had autism-related Asperger's Syndrome this 'gun enthusiast' mother of his taught him how to shoot and failed to keep her mini arsenal of weaponry secure from him. My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!'
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 20:26:11 GMT -6
My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!' Simon, what do you know of "illegal" guns where you are? Or is such a concept even inconceivable?
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Post by Robin Hood on Dec 17, 2012 20:41:47 GMT -6
So called "assault weapons" really are functionally no different than your standard hunting rifle, they are semi-automatic in nature as are most hunting rifles. I would HIGHLY suggest you do some research and instead of taking what the media has to say about these weapons at face value, decide for yourself. May I suggest: and if that isn't enough here is Chuck's take on it!
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Post by Tex on Dec 17, 2012 20:47:10 GMT -6
The guns were purchased by his mother. She probably would have passed whatever background check you could come up with. The kid did not go really bonkers until this. It's hard to figure something that would have prevented this As you say Tex, they weren't his guns, they were his mother's. So he should never have been able to get his hands on them. And even though he had autism-related Asperger's Syndrome this 'gun enthusiast' mother of his taught him how to shoot and failed to keep her mini arsenal of weaponry secure from him. My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!' Why do the police inspect the shotgun cabinet? Here lots of folks sleep with a shotgun under the bed. You can buy a shotgun at a garage sale.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 17, 2012 21:04:32 GMT -6
As you say Tex, they weren't his guns, they were his mother's. So he should never have been able to get his hands on them. And even though he had autism-related Asperger's Syndrome this 'gun enthusiast' mother of his taught him how to shoot and failed to keep her mini arsenal of weaponry secure from him. My mother's partner has a couple of shotguns. They are in a secure cabinet that the police inspect once a year. Only he, the local police station, and the company that installed it, know the combination to get into it. If the police ever even suspected he'd told me, or anyone else, what it is he'd lose his firearms license before you could say 'bang!' Why do the police inspect the shotgun cabinet? Here lots of folks sleep with a shotgun under the bed. You can buy a shotgun at a garage sale.BTW, have I thanked you lately for giving us such great political minds as George W. Bush and Rick Perry? No, I guess I haven't. Nor will I.
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