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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 7:16:51 GMT -6
WE NEED NATIONWIDE COMPREHENSIVE GUN CONTROL LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY.
We need them NOW and we need to stop making excuses about the sensitivity to the latest victims, we need to get these weapons of mass destruction locked down.
I am tired of seeing innocent people killed by the actions of a random nutcase who have special ops grade weapons available to them.
That tired old cliche that "Guns dont kill people, People kill people" needs to be looked at in its proper way.
Guns PROJECT a person's ability to kill far beyond the range of their hands or a knife or a sword, and with a repetitive capability FAR BEYOND that of any other weapon. Yes your hands or a knife will kill another person just as thoroughly as a gun, but when you do that you MUST be in close proximity to the victim. Prove to me that ANYONE can kill 28 people in a matter of seconds with a knife.
The last time something like this happened I was in Switzerland for a curling championship. Switzerland is one of the safest countries in Europe, and has probably the most guns per capita in Europe.
I asked a couple of Swiss friends there WHY their country does not have the same issue with mass murders that we do, with all of the guns around.
They looked puzzled that I would even ask such a question. Switzerland has no standing army, EVERYONE in Switzerland is required to serve in its militia, and those who pass a slew of tests are REQUIRED to keep their guns in a place where they can get to them quickly in case of an emergency.
Sounds like Jakes dream world.
If you fail any one of the tests, it is almost impossible to obtain a weapon. In other words you EARN the right to carry a gun
I put Jake's motto "An armed society is a polite society" to them and asked their opinion. THEY LAUGHED, to them it is TOTALLY BACKWARDS their response was that "Switzerland allows itself to be an armed society because it is a polite society, and THAT is the answer to my original question why these things do not happen in Switzerland."
We as a society have not EARNED the right to bear arms as individuals. Lock them all down NOW and sort out the details of who has the RIGHT to carry one later.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 15, 2012 10:19:12 GMT -6
Sure thing. The Constitution and a slew of data to the contrary can go to hell! We want to feel better about ourselves NOW, dammit!
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Post by Robin Hood on Dec 15, 2012 12:11:03 GMT -6
We need to have a long discussion in this country... and it isn't about guns. Americans have become desensitized to violence, from the TV shows we watch to the video games we play. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Call of Duty and like violent TV shows and movies, however I have the mental capacity to understand that they are FAKE and are there for entertainment purposes only. Just cause I like to play a game where I can shoot my friends doesn't mean I am going to go out and use my "Assault Weapons" and commit mass murder. IMHO the biggest problem we have is the fact that we have abandoned the values that made this country great. We need to sit down and discuss where the disconnect is happening... I can tell you just from what I have seen in my lifetime and raising my kids, that there is a HUGE problem with parents allowing their children to watch and do what ever the fuck they want... we no longer spank our children when they misbehave... we give them a "time out"... WTF You want to know where the problem is... let's take a closer look at the parenting received by these nut jobs. I would bet they were never spanked, probably were put on drugs because they were "ADD" all that combines into a lethal mixture that both hides true mental illness until it is too late. As a society we are so worried about being politically correct we often ignore glaring mental health problems.
So when you have generations of children that has been left to the electronic babysitter, never disciplined and pumped full of mind altering drugs... is it any wonder we have this kind of shit happening?
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 12:15:51 GMT -6
Sure thing. The Constitution and a slew of data to the contrary can go to hell! We want to feel better about ourselves NOW, dammit! You like data? Here's some data: 20 defenseless elementary school aged children died yesterday. How's that for data? And BTW, what's wrong with feeling better about ourselves as a nation? Is the alternative to feel worse about ourselves as a nation? Have we really reached that level of inferiority to the rest of the world?
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 15, 2012 13:01:56 GMT -6
Gentlemen yesterday was a tragedy far worse than any we have seen before. These children had no idea what was happening around them, let alone how to defend or take cover from a mad man. 5 and 10 year old children, lets all be thankful that it wasn't worse and that the teachers had the sense to do their best to protect the other children.
Laws are not going to do it.
Sitting here pointing fingers at each other is not going to resolve the problem or stop it from happening in again in the future.
Pass all the gun laws you want. have gun owners take all the test you want. Try to take all the guns away from people. There will still be guns on the street. The guns used yesterday can be bought on any street in any city in this country of ours. Laws and test will not keep them out of hands of nut jobs.
What we need to do is to secure our schools. How did this nut get on the campus? Every school no matter how big or small should be enclosed with only one way in and one way out, and a minimum of two armed guards at the gate during school hours. No ID, no prior approval from the office no entry to the school. I would gladly pay an additional tax for that type of security for our schools.
When Denice and I heard the new yesterday while driving home, we both almost became sick. We listened for hours to the speech's and new reports and the more we listened the more we thought, what if that was one of our grandchildren at that school?
I wish the nut case that caused this tragedy would have been captured but the gutless fuck shot himself. No I don't want him to go to court and waste millions of dollars on him, I would have wanted him beaten to death. An inch of his life at a time. Painful make it last for weeks.
Do we need more gun laws? I don't know. Would they do any good? I don't know. But while our elected representative sit there and point finger at each other, take photo opps or jump up and look important just to get their name in the paper, we first need to find a way to protect our children.
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Post by Robin Hood on Dec 15, 2012 13:14:07 GMT -6
Joe, not to make light of your points, but there is a much bigger and much more troubling fact here... the mental illness that leads to this shit. I agree, locking down the schools is a good step to take, but we have to look at the root cause of this... The root cause isn't guns, it isn't lack of security, it is MENTAL ILLNESS folks... and we need to figure that out and do something about it. I stated my feelings on the matter earlier... this is what happens when you take generations of kids, don't discipline them, let them do what they want, and pump 'em full of drugs... If you look back right about 30 years or so this crap was pretty damn rare... what has changed?
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 13:26:50 GMT -6
Gordon, first of all, thank you for starting this conversation. Believe it or not, I was going to start the same thread yesterday -- both in topic and title (scary for both of us that we think that similarly, on that we can both agree). I wound up not doing so because the day managed to slip away from me, as I'll describe below; but ultimately, I'm glad you were the one to initiate this thread because you have far more credibility here than I (and deservedly so). Interesting that none of the many right-wing folks on this site took the opportunity to do so.
This incident somewhat struck home for me because the man I sit next to at work is from Connecticut -- in fact, he lives just two towns away from where this took place. Not only that, but his wife is a school teacher and he has an 8 year old daughter (he's the same age as I am, but he married late in life). To say that he was bouncing off the walls yesterday would be putting it mildly. He spent most of the day on his cell phone talking to his daughter and his wife; he has a two hour commute to work each way, so he left early to get home to his family.
Yes, we need nationwide gun laws that are effective -- and no, I'm not talking about repealing the 2nd amendment. But more than that, we need elected officials that have backbone and won't cower to the will of the NRA. Our current Republican-led House of Representatives just won't do it. Furthermore, on the issue of mental illness, easier access to mental health facilities would go a long way here; national health care is a good first step toward that goal.
Big government. We need it and deserve it. We just have to make it work as it was originally intended.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 13:56:59 GMT -6
RH we disagree on a lot of things, but I agree with you 100% on your posts here so far.
Can we agree on this, If people on foodstamps are required to take drug tests, then shouldnt people who want to have a gun be required to pass a psychological evaluation?
That should be the STARTING point on the road to gun purchase.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 13:58:35 GMT -6
Gordon, first of all, thank you for starting this conversation. Believe it or not, I was going to start the same thread yesterday -- both in topic and title (scary for both of us that we think that similarly, on that we can both agree). Beeb at this point, I take it as a badge of pride, I am honored.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 14:00:48 GMT -6
BTW- I was incorrect in my original post. I said "The last time something like this happened I was in Switzerland for a curling championship." WRONG on my part. I forgot about the Aurora CO theater shooting over the summer. Sorry.
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 14:04:47 GMT -6
I would certainly be open to a law that could have prevented this, but banning (assault rifles, handguns, you name it) is just going to give the Mexican gangs another line of work. Marijuana is illegal here and I don't stock it because of asthma, but drop me off on any corner in town and give me a $100 bill and five minutes. I'm open to suggestion but whatever the solution is has to be about effectiveness and not feeling good. Anyone who commits such a crime has already committed 118 felonies - two or three more isn't going to deter them. RH has a point. When I was in high school, many of us took shotguns to school in gun racks. No one was shot.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 14:11:38 GMT -6
You have to give this whackjob's mother credit for her choice of hardware. From the SigSauer websiteELITE FUCKING UNITS, good god why is this thing legal? Plus the guy was wearing FUCKIN BODY ARMOR. My step number 2, following the psych test would be a database that would flag ANYONE who buys Body Armor or armor piercing rounds. That kind of crap has nothing to do with any legitimate use of a gun, that I can think of. Bambi is not going to come after you with anything you need Body Armor for, nor should you need it for target shooting at the local range. Armor Piercing rounds (which were not a factor in this event) serve only one purpose, killing people who wear body armor, like the police. Those should not be available to anyone EXCEPT law enforcement.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 14:13:16 GMT -6
When I was in high school, many of us took shotguns to school in gun racks. No one was shot. Apples & oranges. This is a different society today than it was when we went to high school.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 14:16:57 GMT -6
RH we disagree on a lot of things, but I agree with you 100% on your posts here so far.
Can we agree on this, If people on foodstamps are required to take drug tests, then shouldnt people who want to have a gun be required to pass a psychological evaluation?
That should be the STARTING point on the road to gun purchase. Policemen have to undergo psych evaluations, so why not people who want to purchase guns? It should be a process that becomes part of the waiting period. Also, the federal ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004 needs renewal.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Dec 15, 2012 15:11:54 GMT -6
Everyone on this thread is correct. I think we are all on the same page. The big questions is. How do we get our elected officals to move on this? If they ever start discussing it, it will be along party line and everyone will dig in and nothing will happen.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 15:14:07 GMT -6
The list of victims was just released:
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 15:30:54 GMT -6
Everyone on this thread is correct. I think we are all on the same page. The big questions is. How do we get our elected officals to move on this? If they ever start discussing it, it will be along party line and everyone will dig in and nothing will happen. Joe, you are right. Maybe (its very long odds), but just maybe, this will be the event that shakes everyone out of the hyper-partisan rut we have gotten ourselves into on so many issues of national importance. MORE IMPORTANTLY, I hope that it also kicks the media and the pundits of this country on ALL sides who thrive and profit from divisiveness in their collective asses, hard enough for them to realize that they have NOT been using the airwaves, newsprint and bandwidth of this nation for its best interest, but only to enhance their bottom lines.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 15:37:56 GMT -6
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 15:39:05 GMT -6
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 15:40:03 GMT -6
[/size][/quote]And let's not forget the gun show loophole.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Dec 15, 2012 15:47:24 GMT -6
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 16:09:03 GMT -6
When I was in high school, many of us took shotguns to school in gun racks. No one was shot. Apples & oranges. This is a different society today than it was when we went to high school. I believe that was RH's point. Maybe finding the causes would be constructive.
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 16:12:05 GMT -6
RH we disagree on a lot of things, but I agree with you 100% on your posts here so far.
Can we agree on this, If people on foodstamps are required to take drug tests, then shouldnt people who want to have a gun be required to pass a psychological evaluation?
That should be the STARTING point on the road to gun purchase. Policemen have to undergo psych evaluations, so why not people who want to purchase guns? It should be a process that becomes part of the waiting period. Also, the federal ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004 needs renewal. That might be a good idea, particularly for certain weapons.
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 16:17:07 GMT -6
Comparing the US to England or Canada is apples and oranges. If you have a country that never has had lots of guns, limiting sales probably will limit availability. Guns have a very long shelf life. A hundred year old gun that has been maintained is still functional. There are hundreds of millions of them out there.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 16:19:41 GMT -6
Apples & oranges. This is a different society today than it was when we went to high school. I believe that was RH's point. Maybe finding the causes would be constructive. Spanking children won't fix this.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 16:22:13 GMT -6
Comparing the US to England or Canada is apples and oranges. If you have a country that never has had lots of guns, limiting sales probably will limit availability. Guns have a very long shelf life. A hundred year old gun that has been maintained is still functional. There are hundreds of millions of them out there. The map I indicated in my link was a comparison of the U.S. to all other countries worldwide, not just Canada and England. Gordon already pointed out the difference between the U.S. and Switzerland, which has a high degree of gun ownership.
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Post by Tex on Dec 15, 2012 16:25:44 GMT -6
It may not but it is probably worth asking why my generation had loaded guns everywhere with few problems (and that isn't to say no problems) and why there are so many problems today. I suspect that even the best of solutions will be far from perfect. I am certainly no gun buff and don't know that buying assault weapons over the Internet was what the framers intended.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 15, 2012 16:38:27 GMT -6
Sure thing. The Constitution and a slew of data to the contrary can go to hell! We want to feel better about ourselves NOW, dammit! You like data? Here's some data: 20 defenseless elementary school aged children died yesterday. How's that for data? And BTW, what's wrong with feeling better about ourselves as a nation? Is the alternative to feel worse about ourselves as a nation? Have we really reached that level of inferiority to the rest of the world?The data I was talking about was gun violence in states with concealed carry laws vs. gun violence in states without conceal carry laws. I think that data speaks for itself. And doing something just because it makes you feel good, despite the fact that it doesn't ch-ch-change anything else, is narcissism of the worst kind. But I suspect you knew that I meant that and were just being deliberately obtuse.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Dec 15, 2012 16:40:00 GMT -6
It may not but it is probably worth asking why my generation had loaded guns everywhere with few problems (and that isn't to say no problems) and why there are so many problems today. I suspect that even the best of solutions will be far from perfect. I am certainly no gun buff and don't know that buying assault weapons over the Internet was what the framers intended. Why teenagers would feel the need to carry loaded guns with them anywhere -- much less school -- is something that's hard to grasp. Peer pressure in a dysfunctional environment would probably be a good guess.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Dec 15, 2012 16:40:42 GMT -6
. ....Interesting that none of the many right-wing folks on this site took the opportunity to do so...... That's because we right-wing folk want young children to die, of course. Don't you know that we get a tax credit for every person who dies by gun violence? And if it's a child, a minority, or a cripple, we get double. So we always root for the gunman. Asshole.
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