Grammar Lesson #1: The infamous Series Comma

[Chicago Jake]

christinko said:

.....I do recite almost the entire "Green Eggs & Ham" epic to my English classes at least once a semester (comes up during discussion of the ever-infamous Series Comma)......

So, what is your opinion on this hot burning issue, and why?

Personally, I believe strongly in the series comma. That is, the comma before the "and" in a list of three or more nouns, phrases, or independent clauses. I believe it avoids confusion. For example:

"Give me a beer, gin, and tonic"

is not the same as

"Give me a beer, gin and tonic"

and the series comma helps us to keep the meaning clear.

And then there is always the old joke about the Panda, or is that the Koala: "Eats, shoots, and leaves" vs. "Eats shoots and leaves."

Let the bitter debate begin!......Jake

[Merlot Joe]

Things are getting really slow here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Joe.

[Hazelita]

I totally dig the series comma! I'm a bit of a geek myself.

[Ardbeg... innit]

ABSOLUTELY ... They are a MUST HAVE.

Just dont get me started on to too and two... excuse me to, too, and two...
OR
the ellipsis ...

Gordon

[♥ COVID-19♥]

Use your commas judiciously, but never miss your period.

BTW, I didn't submit my vote because I noticed that my chad was hanging.

[Merlot Joe]

bukkakeboy said:

Use your commas judiciously, but never miss your period.

BTW, I didn't submit my vote because I noticed that my chad was hanging.

Maybe you should wipe next time?

Joe.

[Irish Stu]

No such thing as a series comma in British schools, at least not when I was growing up. I can still remember being told in English Language class that a comma before the 'and' was wrong and if you used it in a test you'd be marked down accordingly. You don't say 'cats, and dogs' so why say 'cats, dogs, and sheep'?

Simon

[Irish Stu]

bornagaindruid said:

the ellipsis ...

I started using the ellipsis a while back, it's very addictive...

Simon...

[Ardbeg... innit]

samnsi said:

No such thing as a series comma in British schools, at least not when I was growing up. I can still remember being told in English Language class that a comma before the 'and' was wrong and if you used it in a test you'd be marked down accordingly. You don't say 'cats, and dogs' so why say 'cats, dogs, and sheep'?

Simon

I was taught the same thing... NEVER before the 'and', UNLESS it clarifies the intent of the sentence. HOWEVER, ALWAYS within the list. For the reason Jake detailed above with the "eats shoots and leaves" above. Without the commas it says that the Panda is eating shoots and leaves, with the commas is indicates that the Panda is armed, has a meal then participates in a drive by.

Gordon

PS... I think the ellipsis is beginning to act like the comma in a lot of online messages

[Christinko]

I live for topics such as these since I'm an English composition teacher these days.

I think the ellipses has not replaced the comma since that would make too many run-on sentences. But I do believe the ellipses has turned into that pause where we say "UH" before we think of the next pithy commentary to add.

People who are adament that the series comma is wrong or right have a sharp pointy object stuck in an unfortunate orifice. Using or not using it is correct. You just must use it (or not use it) consistently within the same document (or, as Jake pointed out, when clarity would be lacking without it) for stylistic reasons only.

Magazines are split 50-50 whether their editors use them. Newspapers notoriously don't use them (AP Style). CMOS (Chicago Manual of Style) requires them. Lawyers rarely use them, and I think they should.

I'm a fan of them because they never hinder reader comprehension and can only help. But if an editing client of mine doesn't like series commas, I delete them.

And you CAN use conjunctions such as "and," "but," and "or" at the beginnings of sentences as long as you don't overdo it, which would start and stop the reader too much. Note that in the USA the periods and commas go INSIDE quotations. Simon, in the U.K. don't periods and commas go outside quotations? That's what my India-born students tell me.

The English teacher is in....free advice, criticism, and kudos aplenty await. (Oh, and generally avoid the use of the exclamation point. Make your words and ideas exciting enough to not need it.)

[Chicago Jake]

samnsi said:

...You don't say 'cats, and dogs' so why say 'cats, dogs, and sheep'?.....

Very simple, my dear Simon (snicker). "cats and dogs" can only be interpreted one way, as a pairing. But "cats, dogs, and sheep" implies a list of three equal and independent items, while "cats, dogs and sheep" could imply that the dogs and the sheep are more closely affiliated with each other than they are with the cats. Since it is a more complex situation, it requires more than one way to indicate what it means. Just MHO, of course......Me, Myself, and I

P.S. - another example: "A camera, Bukkake Boy, and a Sheep" as opposed to "A camera, Bukkake Boy and a Sheep!"

[Christinko]

Seems to me that "A camera, Bukkake Boy and a sheep" just SOUNDS more correct...grins!

[Ardbeg... innit]

Chris, I stand corrected on the ellipsis usage... your presentation is closer to my intent than my own.

Jake... I think your comma usage model (and my own thinking on it), is probably closer to a mathematical presentation than how Simon is thinking. It seems to be a Venn Diagram and Set Theory mentality thing.

Gordon

[Chicago Jake]

Good point, Gordon. My punctuational preferences are largely colored (or, "coloured", for Simon) by my extreme mathematical training. Also by proper nesting of parenthesis in Fortran or LISP.....Jake

[euniceewe]

christinko said:

Seems to me that "A camera, Bukkake Boy and a sheep" just SOUNDS more correct...grins!

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[♥ COVID-19♥]

admin said:

... or is that the Koala: "Eats, shoots, and leaves" ...

That basically describes my entire activity when I visited my ex - girlfriend at her apartment.

[♥ COVID-19♥]

christinko said:

Seems to me that "A camera, Bukkake Boy and a sheep" just SOUNDS more correct...grins!

... Except if the location is the nude beach, where a camera *never* sounds correct.

[♥ COVID-19♥]

admin said:

"A camera, Bukkake Boy and a Sheep!"

The title of the book Dr. Seuss never wrote, but should have.

[Lady Irie]

Interesting topic. The nuns beat it into us NEVER to use a comma before "and", and the ellipsis (which is to be used sparingly and to indicate an omission of text) was to consist of no more than three evenly spaced dots (periods) with one space in-between each. The only time it was seen to have four would be at the end of a sentence. When they were not hitting your hand with their rulers if you did it wrong, points were taken off tests with their little red pens if the spacing was off. That's probably why on message boards I totally abuse the ellipsis. There I showed them! ;D

As far as the series comma goes, I can see where it can be an either or case with the exception of clarity. However, the PTSD from the nuns beating these critical life issues into their students makes it a hard habit to break.

When I was working for a non-profit recently the founder always placed a comma before "and" as her daughter was a proofreader by trade for major publishing houses and a staunch believer that application. For me, this proved to be a hard habit to break. The founder was a gem and made it easy for me - each time she proofed something I did, it was returned with her corrections in red pen. Funny, behind her back people did refer to her as “Mother Superior”.

I am not there any more.

P.S. I can also write in cursive which I have been told is fast becoming a lost art form with today’s youth that seem to have keyboards permanently attached to their fingers. Chris and Jake, have you seen this phenomenon in the classroom?


Edited to add: See, I was not kidding when I said I will not dress up for "School Girl Night" at Hedo. I'll be a slut anytime. . . just not in plaid. LOL

[Christinko]

I've been amazed at the number of students who only use MS Word as a fancy typewriter and have no clue about its ability to word wrap, count words, set up tabs, use efficient keystrokes to select text, cut, copy, and paste instead of the mouse, etc. I'd say 20% don't type with all their fingers (usually the ones over age 25).

The few who still write in cursive do it badly--barely legible.