|
Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 12, 2005 21:48:04 GMT -6
...Hey Lou....where in the US Constitution does it say there should be separation of Church and State??... This is a very good question. I can't remember EVER seeing this mentioned in the US Constitution. Yet it seems to be something that "everyone knows" is true. Do we have any constitutional scholars out there? I KNOW we have a few attorneys out there. What exactly IS the basis for this doctirne? And what are it's intents/limitations/purposes? Inquiring minds and all that.....Jake
|
|
|
Post by Hedo69 on Jan 12, 2005 22:00:48 GMT -6
The term "Separation of Church and State" appears nowhere in the constitution. It came from Thomas Jefferson and speaks of a "wall" of separation, excerpt:
"...I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State..."
The framers of the constitution were worried that history (England) would repeat itself and wanted to avoid the religious wars and hatred that prevailed there. Separation (SOCAS) is actually an establishment clause and in the bill of rights under the First Amendment as:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
|
|
|
Post by luckyhedo on Jan 12, 2005 22:39:32 GMT -6
As I stated in the other thread:
Bob , see the !st Amendment ( i.e. the “Establishment Clause”) - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”<br> In 1947, the U.S. Supreme Court in Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1, 91 L. Ed. 711, [***489] 67 S. Ct. 504 (1947).Stated:
"The Amendment's purpose . . . was to create a complete and permanent separation of the spheres of religious activity and civil authority by comprehensively forbidding every form of public aid or support for religion."
Which was quoted with approval in the 1992 Supreme Court case of Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, Stating:
“Nearly half a century of review and refinement of Establishment Clause jurisprudence has distilled one clear understanding: Government may neither promote nor affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization, nor may it obtrude itself in the internal [**2662] affairs of any religious institution. The application of these principles to the present case mandates the decision reached today by the Court. This Court first reviewed a challenge to state law under the Establishment Clause in Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1, 91 L. Ed. 711, [***489] 67 S. Ct. 504 (1947). n1 Relying on the history of the [*600] Clause, and the Court's prior analysis, Justice Black outlined the considerations that have become the touchstone of Establishment Clause jurisprudence: Neither a State nor the Federal Government can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither a State nor the Federal Government, openly or secretly, can participate in the affairs of [****39] any religious organization and vice versa.
"In the words of Jefferson, the clause [*601] against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and State.'"
Everson, 330 U.S. at 16 (quoting Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 164, 25 L. Ed. 244 (1879)). The dissenters agreed: (Rutledge, J., dissenting, joined by Frankfurter, Jackson, and Burton, JJ.). “<br>
LOU
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 13, 2005 18:56:15 GMT -6
Separation (SOCAS) is actually an establishment clause and in the bill of rights under the First Amendment as: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." This is just not so! Look at that clause *VERY* carefully! It says that Congress shall make no law that will prevent citizens from exercising our freedom of religion. It say *NOTHING* about Congress's right to use religion in the laws it passes. The idea of "Separation of Church and State" is a Judicial fiction Judges put forth over years of rulings. The point being, SOCAS was *NOT* part of the Founding Father's fundamental ideas that became part of our Constitution. The concept developed much later. ..............Bob
|
|
|
Post by Hedo69 on Jan 13, 2005 19:14:55 GMT -6
Our founding fathers didn't mean for it to be this way? Are you so sure. Following is some quote out of their own mouths:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" Thomas Jefferson
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit" "Each of these churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say that their word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say that their word of God, the Koran, was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of these churches accuses the others of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all" Thomas Paine-Was Paine an atheist? NO But his god was Nature and the Universe. Today we would call him a Pantheist
THIS IS INFO ON WRITERS OF CONST and GEORGE WASHINGTON.-The Rev. Dr. Wilson, who was almost a contemporary of our earlier statesmen and presidents, and who thoroughly investigated the subject of their religious beliefs, in his sermon already mentioned affirmed that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected -- George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson -- not one had professed a belief in Christianity. From this sermon I quote the following:
"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those who have been called to administer the government have not been men making any public profession of Christianity. ... Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a professing Christian."
In a letter to the Rev. George Whitefield, written in 1753, when he was forty-seven years old, we have his opinion of Christianity:
"The faith you mention has doubtless its use in the world. I do not desire to see it diminished, nor would I desire to lessen it in any way; but I wish it were more productive of good works than I have generally seen it. I mean real good works, works of kindness, charity, mercy, and public spirit, not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing, and reading, performing church ceremonies, or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments, despised even by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity"- Ben Franklin
Bob, shall I continue? I don't want to overwhelm you with facts.
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 13, 2005 19:46:20 GMT -6
Bob, shall I continue? I don't want to overwhelm you with facts. I would appreciate being overwhelmed with "facts." Unfortunately, those quotes above are "opinion." Additionally, I don't see how they relate to whether our Constitution specifically states there should be Separation of Church and State. It simply is not in our Constitution! That is my only point, which you don't seem to understand. I am making no judgment on how our Gov't tackles the issue today, just it wasn't originally in our Constitution. If it is, please say where! (The clause about gov't making no laws restricting religion ain't it!" ...................Bob
|
|
|
Post by Hedo69 on Jan 13, 2005 19:51:45 GMT -6
Never said it was....but it is in the Bill of Rights. The constitution isn't the only paper out there that we go by as a country.
And yes, you did indeed say that: I did indeed prove that the founding fathers had fundamental ideas that did NOT include us being a Christian nation. That concept developed right then.
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 13, 2005 20:00:34 GMT -6
I did indeed prove that the founding fathers had fundamental ideas that did NOT include us being a Christian nation. That concept developed right then. But as my quote said, those ideas DID NOT find their way into the Constitution!! They can think what ever they want. It's what is written down on paper that really matters. ..........Bob
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 13, 2005 20:02:06 GMT -6
Great discussion on Hannity and Colmes about this right now!!
|
|
|
Post by Harrybutt on Jan 13, 2005 20:49:23 GMT -6
What station they on?
|
|
|
Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 14, 2005 16:43:15 GMT -6
I guess you don't watch Fox News, HB! ;D
|
|