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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 29, 2013 12:27:17 GMT -6
Thank you Anita, for at least responding with some though and consideration. I agree with ALL of your points that you added. Personally I do not believe that ANY particular model should be outlawed per se. Rifles such as the AK-47 have been used, and I use it as a "generic" model to cover ALL semi-automatic weapons that may accept on oversized magazine, simply because everyone seems to know what it is.
Yes, many hunters and sportmen, collectors and gun lovers in general have said "Enough" but I am not sure that their voices are being heard by those at the top. I get the sense of an all or nothing approach so far, adn the middle ground is being ignored... I can only presume for ideological reasons. Some of Obamas proposals have significant merit, others do not. Some of the concepts from gun rights organizations have merit, others do not. Until the chasm is bridged all we will have is polarization and status quo.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 29, 2013 12:29:40 GMT -6
Tex, rather than obfuscate the discussion, just come out and tell me what you are alluding to. I could make an educated guess as to what your reference "tens of millions of unarmed citizens died just in the lifetime of an eighty year old alive today" means, but Id rather not commit to addressing it, just in case you are referring to something completely different. Is this the "Hitler did this" argument? If so, I am disappointed, I always figured you for being more thoughtful. I didn't really think I was beating around the bush, but I was alluding to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al. I may have to reconcile myself to your disappointment since you are disappointed by those who disagree with your point of view. I am not a gun guy, but I know Texas well, and an attempt to seize private weapons will touch off armageddon. Tex... WHO EXACTLY in any position of authority has proposed weapon seizures?
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 29, 2013 12:40:58 GMT -6
Insofar as the "Hitler Argument" goes.. LaPierre of the NRA made it famous in his book, but he largely presented only one side of THAT story Link
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 29, 2013 12:48:39 GMT -6
BTW- if the case is being made that there will be Armageddon, and it will be the people against the government coming to seize their weapons, logic would dictate that the military and and all law enforcement forces should be defunded and disarmed immediately.
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Post by New Mama on Jan 29, 2013 13:09:30 GMT -6
Hitler banned the sale and possession of guns for all Jews. On November 19th only 8 days after that law was established Heinrich Himmler, commander of all German police, issued an order forbidding Jews to possess any weapons whatever and imposed a penalty of twenty years confinement in a concentration camp upon every Jew found in possession of a weapon hereafter. Three thousands Jews were taken away on this charge alone. BTW, they knew who they were because the guns had be registered as required by law.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 29, 2013 13:41:45 GMT -6
That part is true, but the rest of the story is that for most Germans, gun restrictions were relaxed or eliminated.
No one is suggesting that we eliminate gun ownership at all, let alone for any particular ethnic/racial group. Besides, do you truly believe that the government is about to come out and confiscate guns from anyone, if so, what makes you think this is about to take place?
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 29, 2013 14:19:49 GMT -6
Diatribe? Really?I spent the time and effort to lay out what I considered a logical thesis of what I believe and why. The responses are dismissal and implied bumper sticker slogans. Is this is all you have got guys?? Not a single answer to a single question posed above. If youre not really serious, then what is the point for this forum anymore? Yes, diatribe, really. You mention "children" no less than three times, you also mention "sons and daughters." You put gun "rights" in quotes as if they don't really exist. And never ONCE do you try to address the real reason people want to own guns: for protection. It is clearly nothing more than a demagogic polemic.
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Post by New Mama on Jan 29, 2013 15:29:21 GMT -6
I don't think they will ever try to take away the guns that people already legally have.
I do think they do not have a handle on the illegal guns and I don't want them banning guns that the criminals already have. That's not a fair fight.
The fact is that Hitler did ban a specific group of German people from having guns. Look what that did for them.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 29, 2013 15:37:08 GMT -6
Maybe they should stop arming Mexican drug lords before they try to disarm American citizens.
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Post by Tex on Jan 29, 2013 17:13:19 GMT -6
If you insist that everyone who owns a gun registers (I'm assuming they want your address too), presumably pay some fees and have mandatory jail sentences for folks who don't go along, otherwise law abiding citizens are then criminals and could be treated as such. Piss on that, gun ownership is our birthright. If one were thinking about confiscating guns, a list of owners and their addresses would be the first step, would it not?
We did not have rampant mass murders back when the nutcases were more readily institutionalized. We tried a ten year ban on assault weapons - it didn't help anything - Columbine happened right in the middle of the ban. If it wasn't effective ten years ago, what has changed since then that would make it work now?
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Jan 30, 2013 6:17:49 GMT -6
OK, a three person tag team against me has worn me down. You guys win. I was wrong. They should hand out guns next to the popcorn stand in the movie theaters and give one to the kindergartners on their first day of school and life will be rosy.
BTW- In the time since this discussion started a month ago, statistically, over 1,000 people have died from guns in this country... ahhh the sweet smell of Freedom
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Post by New Mama on Jan 30, 2013 9:10:13 GMT -6
Tex, I agree with a lot you say but criminals and crazies are the problem. Seldom does a mass murderer own a gun legally. This is why I think registration, training, locks for responsible gun owners is a realistic approach to the problem.
I don't think we would ever suffer the confiscation of guns in this country. That would surely cause a civil war so I don't see the danger in the registration process.
These safeguards should allow MORE responsible gun ownership. I think having more armed good guys can put a dent in the number of bad guys with guns out there and likely stop many of the bad guys from the mass killings we have suffered in the past decades.
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Post by Tex on Jan 30, 2013 9:24:46 GMT -6
Tex, I agree with a lot you say but criminals and crazies are the problem. Seldom does a mass murderer own a gun legally. This is why I think registration, training, locks for responsible gun owners is a realistic approach to the problem. I don't think we would ever suffer the confiscation of guns in this country. That would surely cause a civil war so I don't see the danger in the registration process. These safeguards should allow MORE responsible gun ownership. I think having more armed good guys can put a dent in the number of bad guys with guns out there and likely stop many of the bad guys from the mass killings we have suffered in the past decades. I agree with you about the criminals and crazies. So why put more burden on everyone else? Places such as Texas and North Dakota, where guns substantially outnumber people, don't seem to have any more gun crime than places where the laws are draconian. Chicago has very strict gun laws - not working so well.
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Post by New Mama on Jan 30, 2013 10:05:53 GMT -6
You are correct about the gun restrictions in Chicago, yet we do have 50 murders by guns already this year in Chicago. You basically need to be a licensed PI to own a gun in Chicago legally. The requirements are so strict. The majority of guns are in the hands of the bad guys here. Having more good guys with guns will likely help the murder rate here too.
With so many on the left clamoring for gun bans I'm thinking that tougher rules but reasonable rules would be a good compromise in those areas of the country that are liberal in the extreme.
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Post by Robin Hood on Jan 30, 2013 18:52:03 GMT -6
You are correct about the gun restrictions in Chicago, yet we do have 50 murders by guns already this year in Chicago. You basically need to be a licensed PI to own a gun in Chicago legally. The requirements are so strict. The majority of guns are in the hands of the bad guys here. Having more good guys with guns will likely help the murder rate here too. With so many on the left clamoring for gun bans I'm thinking that tougher rules but reasonable rules would be a good compromise in those areas of the country that are liberal in the extreme. How is it that me as a law abiding citizen should be penalized because the left wants a compromise... that is NOT a compromise... that is an assault on my rights. A compromise is when you get something in return for giving something. I repeat, just taking away my rights as a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN with nothing in return is NOT a compromise. Now you want to repeal the NFA for some stronger background checks... we can talk... I have wanted a full auto Tommy Gun for a long time. ;D THAT is compromise.
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Post by New Mama on Jan 31, 2013 11:31:10 GMT -6
You are correct about the gun restrictions in Chicago, yet we do have 50 murders by guns already this year in Chicago. You basically need to be a licensed PI to own a gun in Chicago legally. The requirements are so strict. The majority of guns are in the hands of the bad guys here. Having more good guys with guns will likely help the murder rate here too. With so many on the left clamoring for gun bans I'm thinking that tougher rules but reasonable rules would be a good compromise in those areas of the country that are liberal in the extreme. How is it that me as a law abiding citizen should be penalized because the left wants a compromise... that is NOT a compromise... that is an assault on my rights. A compromise is when you get something in return for giving something. I repeat, just taking away my rights as a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN with nothing in return is NOT a compromise. Now you want to repeal the NFA for some stronger background checks... we can talk... I have wanted a full auto Tommy Gun for a long time. ;D THAT is compromise. I hear you and can't really disagree with your opinion. What you don't get is that the left doesn't want a compromise they want to BAN GUNS. I think the gun community must offer compromise with much tougher requirements to AVOID a ban. Don't forget who is in control right now, not to mention a current President that issues executive orders without too much thought to the Constitution. It will only get worse when Obama gets to appoint another Supreme Court Judge or two. It's called loosing a battle but winning a war.
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Post by innit Geezer on Jan 31, 2013 13:41:12 GMT -6
Ironically there seems to be a revised interest in gun collecting and sport use. Some friends of mine are have renewed interest and are ramping up their skeet shooting.
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Post by New Mama on Jan 31, 2013 15:48:41 GMT -6
Ironically there seems to be a revised interest in gun collecting and sport use. Some friends of mine are have renewed interest and are ramping up their skeet shooting. Very true. The gun industry is booming.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 31, 2013 16:04:44 GMT -6
Number One with a Bullet!!
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Post by Robin Hood on Jan 31, 2013 22:18:02 GMT -6
I hear you and can't really disagree with your opinion. What you don't get is that the left doesn't want a compromise they want to BAN GUNS. I think the gun community must offer compromise with much tougher requirements to AVOID a ban. Don't forget who is in control right now, not to mention a current President that issues executive orders without too much thought to the Constitution. It will only get worse when Obama gets to appoint another Supreme Court Judge or two. It's called loosing a battle but winning a war. They ain't getting JACK SHIT from me... I WILL stand my ground on this one, along with a whole shitload of otherwise good upstanding law abiding citizens... This ass clown in the White House is going to fuck around and start a God Damned civil war in this country. Manufacturers are running full-bore, but can’t come close to keeping up with market demand. It isn't just the AR-15s, the AK-pattern rifles, the M1As, and the FALs that are sold out. It really hit me when I realized that the World War-era M1 Garands , M1 carbines, and Enfield .303s were gone, along with every last shell. Ubiquitous Mosin-Nagants—of which every gun store always seems to have 10-20—are gone. So is their ammo. Only a dust free space marks their passing. I’ve never seen anything like it. The only things left are a few pump shotguns along with a smattering of deer rifles, single-shots, and longer double-barreled shotguns suitable only for trap or skeet. Even the semi-automatic .22LR rifles like Ruger 10/22s are gone. Every weapon of any kind of military utility designed within the past 100+ years is gone. This isn’t a society stocking up on certain guns because they fear they may be banned. This is a society preparing for war. I don't know about you but this scares the shit out of me and I am part of the "gun culture". I have always kept a fairly decent sized stash of goodies on hand, never know when the defecation might hit the oscillation. Look at what happened in LA with the riots, Katrina, etc. It can and does happen from time to time, I would much rather be prepared than take it in the ass.
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Post by Chicago Jake on Feb 1, 2013 0:32:30 GMT -6
I hope we are about to see a confrontation between the government and the armed citizenry. Things are getting out of hand. A second American Revolution is more than due.
You go, RH! And all of your compatriots. I don't own any weapons myself, but I am ideologically on your side.
"America" is more about ideas and freedom and individual liberties than it is about the establishment. I can only pray that we, as a society, get back to what really matters. With a minimum of bloodshed if possible, but with more if that's what it takes.
It is trite but true: Freedom isn't free.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Feb 1, 2013 1:48:14 GMT -6
I always thought that there would be another war USA soil. I always thought we would end defending ourselves from some one from the middle east. I never thought we would be shooting each other.
If they ban guns and the government comes looking for them, there will be blood shed and lots of it.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Feb 1, 2013 7:03:21 GMT -6
I hope we are about to see a confrontation between the government and the armed citizenry. Things are getting out of hand. A second American Revolution is more than due. You go, RH! And all of your compatriots. I don't own any weapons myself, but I am ideologically on your side."America" is more about ideas and freedom and individual liberties than it is about the establishment. I can only pray that we, as a society, get back to what really matters. With a minimum of bloodshed if possible, but with more if that's what it takes. It is trite but true: Freedom isn't free. In other words, dont expect to hear the words "Ive got your back" from you if the shit hits and you are facing down the US Army.
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Post by Robin Hood on Feb 1, 2013 7:39:16 GMT -6
I hope we are about to see a confrontation between the government and the armed citizenry. Things are getting out of hand. A second American Revolution is more than due. You go, RH! And all of your compatriots. I don't own any weapons myself, but I am ideologically on your side."America" is more about ideas and freedom and individual liberties than it is about the establishment. I can only pray that we, as a society, get back to what really matters. With a minimum of bloodshed if possible, but with more if that's what it takes. It is trite but true: Freedom isn't free. In other words, dont expect to hear the words "Ive got your back" from you if the shit hits and you are facing down the US Army. Funny thing is... guess whose side the US Armed Forces will come down on... it is not the side of tyranny... there is a reason that among military voters Obama lost to Romney by a margin of about 75%-25%. Those guys maintaining all that "Army" gear are PATRIOTS, they swore an oath to the CONSTITUTION not to the Marxist regime in power now. As I have stated before the only thing that it would take right now to set off this powder keg we call a country is one incident like Waco, Ruby Ridge or Lawmaster incident... it would unleash a shitstorm like this country has never seen. As far as Jake not having any weapons, come on down when the time comes and I will hook you right up. Most of the "evil black rifle" owners that I know don't just own just one... and I know guys that could arm a platoon.
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Post by innit Geezer on Feb 1, 2013 7:49:31 GMT -6
I know you're frustrated but I doubt at any time a bunch of over taxed amd frustrated country boys will make an attempt at a revolution.
Believe me I understand, NY is the land of high taxes and freedom crushing government.
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Post by Tex on Feb 1, 2013 8:05:35 GMT -6
It might be wise to think a couple of jumps ahead. Say you pass some new legislation outlawing certain weapon categories and requiring gun owners to register, train, pay fees, turn in prohibited weapons, take your pick. An entire region of the country (incidentally the same region who mans the armed forces disproportionately) will ignore the new rules. What then?
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Post by New Mama on Feb 1, 2013 9:01:00 GMT -6
A gun confiscation will not happen; at least not in the foreseeable future. Neither Obama nor Biden has ever said this is their desire.
Banning some guns sales in the future could cause civil unrest akin to the demonstrations I witnessed in the 60's and 70's against the Vietnam War, but an all out civil war...I think not. Americans today are too self centered and complacent to risk their lives over a gun ban. Nothing happened when Clinton banned some guns. A military coup over a weapon ban is also very doubtful.
I think gun sales are surging because of the 'possibility' of a gun ban, age old speculation for profit and in a good number of cases simple self-protection.
People should know that gun ownership is at an all time high but the national murder rate with guns has been dropping annually.
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Post by Tex on Feb 1, 2013 9:13:09 GMT -6
I suspect that we will simply wind up with some new unenforceable laws on the books.
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Post by Tex on Feb 1, 2013 9:13:48 GMT -6
And drive the gun market underground.
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Post by New Mama on Feb 1, 2013 9:19:36 GMT -6
And drive the gun market underground. Exactly. Every modern study and statistic shows that banning guns is ineffective in stopping crime. It didn't work with booze and it doesn't work with drugs either. It only creates a culture for criminals to deliver what people what illegally. Elliot Ness is long dead.
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