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Post by Christinko on May 24, 2005 9:03:19 GMT -6
The end of the quarter has arrived where I teach composition at a jr. college.
I caught 20% of students plagiarizing their final paper and gave them all Fs. I'm so pissed I could spit. Or maybe I should just piss...on their heads.
Earlier in the quarter, I did a 3-hour discussion/lecture about what plagiarism is, why it's bad, how to recognize it, and how to avoid it with correct citation and paraphrasing or quoting. I try to instill the fear of god into them about it, and some ARE all worked up about making sure it doesn't occur.
I know that plagiarism has always occurred at high rates (even pre-Internet), and I'm sure I inadvertently did it too when I was in school.
I guess I'm just fascinated that these students think I'm stupid and they will get away with it. The Internet as a tool allows them to steal more easily and me to catch them more easily.
My question to you is this:
As adults, possibly knowing the value of intellectual property as a commodity, what do you think the penalty for plagiarizing should be in college-level classes?
My school leaves it up to the teachers. I flunk 'em. And does your opinion vary if the stuff stolen (plagiarized) is words versus music versus video? (as in downloading music that you didn't pay for)
Are the jokes/humor/photos/etc that we all email to each other truly just theft of someone's intellectual property?
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Post by Merlot Joe on May 24, 2005 9:26:11 GMT -6
My question to you is this: As adults, possibly knowing the value of intellectual property as a commodity, what do you think the penalty for plagiarizing should be in college-level classes? ? I am far from being a teacher but here's what I think.(for what little it's worth). They are adults and should know better,specially after you did a lecture on that subject. An "F" works good for me. That's a good question. In my opinion no, because that what has always been done with jokes and now photo's because of the Internet. But only if it is for fun and no financial gain. If you are trying to make a buck at and doing it without someones permission then yes. But that brings us to another point because Comedians have been stealing each others jokes for years. Who really knows. Joe.
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on May 24, 2005 9:43:38 GMT -6
Chris
I agree completely with Joe. You did the ABSOLUTE right thing handing out the F's. Dont think twice about it.
As for jokes, reposting or forwarding them is really no different than doing so verbally. As long as you arent taking credit for the joke or picture there is no harm that I can see. Now if there is copyright laws involved them the usage has to fall under the copyright terms, but most of this stuff falls under what has to be deemed public domain.
My opinion!
Gordon
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on May 24, 2005 15:27:26 GMT -6
I guess I'm just fascinated that these students think I'm stupid and they will get away with it. I'm not convinced that's the case. Perhaps it's more likely they just don't care. It might be giving too much credit to assume they've thought it through this far, but perhaps in seeing other unacceptable behavior in the recent past in the news, they might see this in the grand scheme of things as being such a minor infraction it isn't event worth the consideration of accountability. Or should this be in the "Taking Responsibility" thread?
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on May 24, 2005 17:18:16 GMT -6
On the one hand, given that Billions and Billions of folks have lived on this Earth, has ANYONE of us had a TRULY ORIGINAL THOUGHT? OTOH, I agree with you Chris, FLUNK'EM when you can show without a doubt what they did. When someone copies and pastes something that someone else wrote, it's pretty clear. But, I often wonder when someone has an IDEA that someone else also had, if that is also "plagiarism." I've never really been able to figure that one out to my satisfaction. Maybe you can clue me in....... ..............Bob (who really knows squat about writing. which I am sure is obvious to most! )
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Post by Tex on May 24, 2005 18:02:31 GMT -6
IMHO, generally plagiarism (or any intellectual property theft) serves to discourage creation of intellectual property and is a bad thing. When it come down to cases, however, there are so many shades of this that it gets messy trying to draw the line.
As far as the students go, I would make clear what the rules were on the first day and stick to my guns. I assume they are there to learn something about writing, so copying off of the internet wastes everyone's time.
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Post by Chicago Jake on May 24, 2005 23:10:49 GMT -6
In my line of teaching (manufacturing engineering at the post-graduate level), plagiarism is rarely an issue. However, I do get the inevitable whining about final grades. Whatever grades I issue, I'm pretty much sure to get the whiney emails from anyone who got less than an A.
A typical email is along the lines of "Professor, you gave me a B, but I NEED to get an A in this class, because I got a C in another class, and I need an A to maintain my B grade point average!"
Of course, my answer always addresses the two most obvious flaws in their logic:
1) Don't bitch at me... talk to the guy who gave you a C! 2) Grades are not based on NEED, they are based on PERFORMANCE!
Morons!......JC
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on May 25, 2005 5:34:18 GMT -6
The really sad part is that plagerism, with proper citations as to source, becomes a very valuable and powerful tool, and not only acceptable but encouraged in promoting a subject. Just that little extra effort plus a little bit of original prose to string the quotes together makes a huge difference in the quality of the paper and (assumption) the grade.
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on May 25, 2005 9:37:18 GMT -6
After giving this matter of plagiarism great thought, here is what I think:
I am far from being a teacher but here's what I think.(for what little it's worth).
They are adults and should know better,specially after you did a lecture on that subject. An "F" works good for me.
On the one hand, given that Billions and Billions of folks have lived on this Earth, has ANYONE of us had a TRULY ORIGINAL THOUGHT?
OTOH, I agree with you Chris, FLUNK'EM when you can show without a doubt what they did.
When someone copies and pastes something that someone else wrote, it's pretty clear. But, I often wonder when someone has an IDEA that someone else also had, if that is also "plagiarism." I've never really been able to figure that one out to my satisfaction. Maybe you can clue me in.......
IMHO, generally plagiarism (or any intellectual property theft) serves to discourage creation of intellectual property and is a bad thing. When it come down to cases, however, there are so many shades of this that it gets messy trying to draw the line.
As far as the students go, I would make clear what the rules were on the first day and stick to my guns. I assume they are there to learn something about writing, so copying off of the internet wastes everyone's time.
In my line of teaching (manufacturing engineering at the post-graduate level), plagiarism is rarely an issue. However, I do get the inevitable whining about final grades. Whatever grades I issue, I'm pretty much sure to get the whiney emails from anyone who got less than an A.
A typical email is along the lines of "Professor, you gave me a B, but I NEED to get an A in this class, because I got a C in another class, and I need an A to maintain my B grade point average!"
Of course, my answer always addresses the two most obvious flaws in their logic:
1) Don't bitch at me... talk to the guy who gave you a C! 2) Grades are not based on NEED, they are based on PERFORMANCE!
And my final thought on the matter of plagiarism:
The really sad part is that plagerism, with proper citations as to source, becomes a very valuable and powerful tool, and not only acceptable but encouraged in promoting a subject. Just that little extra effort plus a little bit of original prose to string the quotes together makes a huge difference in the quality of the paper and (assumption) the grade.
========= The above material is copyrighted 2005 by Bukkake Boy Enterprises, LLC and cannot be reused either in whole or in part without the author's written permission.
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Post by Merlot Joe on May 25, 2005 10:08:50 GMT -6
After giving this matter of plagiarism great thought, here is what I think: I am far from being a teacher but here's what I think.(for what little it's worth). They are adults and should know better,specially after you did a lecture on that subject. An "F" works good for me. On the one hand, given that Billions and Billions of folks have lived on this Earth, has ANYONE of us had a TRULY ORIGINAL THOUGHT? OTOH, I agree with you Chris, FLUNK'EM when you can show without a doubt what they did. When someone copies and pastes something that someone else wrote, it's pretty clear. But, I often wonder when someone has an IDEA that someone else also had, if that is also "plagiarism." I've never really been able to figure that one out to my satisfaction. Maybe you can clue me in....... IMHO, generally plagiarism (or any intellectual property theft) serves to discourage creation of intellectual property and is a bad thing. When it come down to cases, however, there are so many shades of this that it gets messy trying to draw the line. As far as the students go, I would make clear what the rules were on the first day and stick to my guns. I assume they are there to learn something about writing, so copying off of the internet wastes everyone's time. In my line of teaching (manufacturing engineering at the post-graduate level), plagiarism is rarely an issue. However, I do get the inevitable whining about final grades. Whatever grades I issue, I'm pretty much sure to get the whiney emails from anyone who got less than an A. A typical email is along the lines of "Professor, you gave me a B, but I NEED to get an A in this class, because I got a C in another class, and I need an A to maintain my B grade point average!" Of course, my answer always addresses the two most obvious flaws in their logic: 1) Don't bitch at me... talk to the guy who gave you a C! 2) Grades are not based on NEED, they are based on PERFORMANCE! And my final thought on the matter of plagiarism: The really sad part is that plagerism, with proper citations as to source, becomes a very valuable and powerful tool, and not only acceptable but encouraged in promoting a subject. Just that little extra effort plus a little bit of original prose to string the quotes together makes a huge difference in the quality of the paper and (assumption) the grade. ========= The above material is copyrighted 2005 by Bukkake Boy Enterprises, LLC and cannot be reused either in whole or in part without the author's written permission. No shit, ask me if I care!!!!!!!!! ;D Joe
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Post by Christinko on May 25, 2005 14:20:44 GMT -6
BB!
Good one!
I use something similar in an overhead to start my plagiarism lecture:
I plagiarize because I like the way someone else said it better and I want the credit. ---Mary Dublin
I plagiarize because I like the way someone else said it better and I want the credit: ---Joe Smatters
My biggest interest is the WAY each student reacts to the ZERO at the top of their page.
--Some argue. They lose. --Some walk away without a word never to be seen again. --Some bitch and tell me I'm petty. (These students likely will fail in life, too, because nothing will be their fault.) --Some beg for mercy and jump through any hoop I present. (I like that ass-kissing and tell them what must occur)
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Post by Kawaii Kaiju on May 25, 2005 15:34:19 GMT -6
--Some beg for mercy and jump through any hoop I present. (I like that ass-kissing and tell them what must occur) Intersting. I don't know that I would have pegged you in the camp of "leniency towards asskissers". I think I would have guessed you as a "you screwed up, cope with the consequences, it will do you no good to beg" kind of girl. Zilla Inigo: Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die! <Inigo corners Count Rugen and slashes his cheek> Offer me money! <He slashes his other cheek> Count Rugen: All that I have and more. Please... Inigo: Offer me anything I ask for. Count Rugen: Anything you want... Inigo: <plunging his sword into Rugen's chest> I want my father back, you son of a bitch! <Count Rugen falls to the floor, dead. Inigo runs off to find Wesley.> -- The Princess Bride
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on May 25, 2005 19:18:32 GMT -6
--Some bitch and tell me I'm petty. (These students likely will fail in life, too, because nothing will be their fault.) I am SO SORRY that you have Lib'ruls in your class! It must be tough! ;D ............Bob
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Post by DT on May 25, 2005 20:45:08 GMT -6
DrBob is starting the political mudslinging again, but I don't expect anything better from him. The "Lib'ruls" are his whipping boys, and much like the Taliban, he will use every opportunity to spout hate and "blame" in their direction.
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on May 25, 2005 21:04:41 GMT -6
DrBob is starting the political mudslinging again, but I don't expect anything better from him. The "Lib'ruls" are his whipping boys, and much like the Taliban, he will use every opportunity to spout hate and "blame" in their direction. Gadzooks! The plagiarism on this board is incredible! Nevertheless, I don't "blame" Lib'ruls. They have enough of that to go around for all the rest of us. I take FULL responsibility! ...............Bob ;D
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Post by Kawaii Kaiju on May 25, 2005 21:05:28 GMT -6
DrBob is starting the political mudslinging again, but I don't expect anything better from him. The "Lib'ruls" are his whipping boys, and much like the Taliban, he will use every opportunity to spout hate and "blame" in their direction. I wish I had thought to say something like that.... ;D Zilla (uhm, neener neener neener?)
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on May 25, 2005 21:18:42 GMT -6
Zilla......we know you are better than that! ;D ............Bob
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Post by Mickey on Jun 5, 2005 20:50:35 GMT -6
Don't these kids know that you CAN use someone else's knowledge/findings/prose in a paper to fill it out, legally??? Plus, you get to indent the quote one inch on each side, making it count for more pages? If you are assigned to do a paper, you can make a 4, 5, 6 pages -- whatever length paper by writing ONE sentence for each "quote", then illuminating it with a "quote" (of course indented right and left one inch) and FOOTNOTING it, and BIBLIOGRAPHING it!! Home Run!
They should take a lesson from the masters -- look at any scholarly tome and it primarily footnotes, quotes, and diagrams, with a bit of blather in between.
So, by grabbing pages of previously-written findings, and put a sentence or two in between -- i.e., ...and as Joe Schmo said...., you get a hefty paper to hand in, with footnotes and bibliography. Slap a fancy cover on and you're in!!
"Plagerism" can be your friend, if you treat it nice!
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Post by Christinko on Jun 6, 2005 8:20:09 GMT -6
Zilla, Yes, it's true--I didn't hold my guns steady.
I've given four students over the years the chance to redeem themselves if the plagiarism was a phrase or a sentence within their 10-page papers---ONLY because the dean of the department said that I should take advantage of teaching moments. I made the students write an 8-page paper about what plagiarism is, why it's bad, and how to avoid it.
Three of the students took me up on my offer. One of those three plagiarized the extra paper about plagiarism that I asked them to write (F for the class, natch). And Mickey is 1/2 right. I don't allow more than 20% of the paper to be direct quotes so the students can't get away with stringing together others' quotes. That would be editing, not writing.
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Post by Irish Eyes on Jun 9, 2005 0:04:32 GMT -6
One time, when Kev was about 7, twice in one week he blew out the fluorescent bulb in the kitchen (nerf football). The first time I just replaced it; the second time I was pissed!!! I assigned him to do for me a paper on Flourescence - what it is, how it makes light, etc. I learned a lot, and he did too. There was plenty of cut and paste, but I think something good came out of it. From then on, when he wronged, I assigned a paper on the particular wrong -- and by God, the boy can now WRITE, better then most college graduates sent my way, who can't form a sentence gramattically or without collequiesms. Go figure!
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Post by DT on Jun 12, 2005 2:08:14 GMT -6
Alot of good came out of it. wtg!!!
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Post by Christinko on Jun 12, 2005 12:26:25 GMT -6
Irish Eyes posted: ...who can't form a sentence gramattically or without collequiesms. Go figure!
DT posted: Alot of good came out of it.
Does anyone else see the humor here? (or were the misspellings intentional?)
Follow-up to plagiarism story:
So the student-idiot who plagiarized the plagiarism paper emailed me (with great belligerance to his tone) to ask why he rec'd an F for the class. I told him because he plagiarized. He responded that my answer was bullshit and wanted examples. I sent him three sentences lifted from a website with one word substition and 4 words added.
Haven't heard back from the guy. I DO worry that he'll show up at my door with a gun because I've inconvenienced him (he has to take the course again and signing up for summer quarter is too late; and in the fall classes ch-ch-change from quarter-long to semester-long so they cost more and are 16 weeks instead of 10 weeks.
Being physically hurt is the part of teaching that concerns me. The retribution and blame factor. As though I'm the problem. Whenever I give someone a bad grade, I ALWAYS think they may hurt me. Am I paranoid?
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Post by DT on Jun 12, 2005 13:09:08 GMT -6
Too bad you can't see the positive in her message and my responce. It wasn't about humor. Irish told a story about Kev. She said I think something good came out of it. I thought alot of good came out of it. Yud tink yud being a member of dis bord yud know I don't give a rats ass bout speiling.
pssssst....... Youse having a negative day there? Book sales down for the month?
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Post by Christinko on Jun 12, 2005 16:18:21 GMT -6
Wasn't looking for a fight, DT. I make spelling errors too. Irish Eyes doesn't often make grammatical/spelling errors.
I thought the CONTEXT of the errors was funny. I would never publicly point out someone's typos/errors unless the context merited it--usually for clear communication or humor's sake.
I don't think I know who you are, DT. Know that I'm not that cruel to insult someone over his/her spelling, especially if I don't know the person. My friends tease me about my grammatical or spelling errors all the time because I'm paid to know better.
Irish Eyes was writing about the quality of writing and you were agreeing with her. Both of you made spelling errors. Therein lies the humor. That's why I wasn't sure if you two were doing it on purpose or by accident.
For example on a professor rating site one student wrote about me: "She taught me alot about writing." The mispelling "alot" as one word--when the word is two words--was hilarious to me.
I sometimes don't "get" jokes, so I was just asking whether these misspellings were jokes. As a writer, I often insert intentional mistakes for humor.
Your "pssst" had a nasty tone (and I'm waiting for BB to insert fart comment here). I can only assume you are sensitive about your self-professed lack of spelling skills and bear me no real animosity.
I hadn't particularily noticed you had a spelling problem before. In the future I'll be more sensitive to your disability, and I will not bring it up again in a public forum.
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Post by DT on Jun 12, 2005 23:30:52 GMT -6
Huh? Irish Eyes post was about the quality of Kev's writing through the projects she had him do. Nothing to do with hers or my writings.
Nasty no. Curious and sarcastic yes. Why? Cause you twisted two post around to something they aren't. I see no "atta girl" from you to Irish for a well said post.
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Post by Christinko on Jun 13, 2005 7:55:13 GMT -6
DT, Yes--as I said "Irish Eyes was writing about the quality of writing"---I didn't say HER writing. I didn't say KEV's writing. Again, the CONTEXT was that she was talking about writing that had good quality. And I did say her writing is often grammatically correct. In fact, I was genuinely surprised she made those spelling errors (wasn't like her).
You can't argue with my feelings or opinions about your "pssst" being nasty. By trying to do that you insult me further. I'm allowed to have opinions and feelings. Your out-of-the-blue comment about my book was like me jumping in and saying: "your father smells of elderberries." Well, at least that would be funny. Or here's a nasty version (solely an example, not directed at you): "Why are you whining? Did your girlfriend drop you because your dick is tiny?"
You, too, are allowed to have opinions and feelings--and I acknowledged your sensitivity and said I won't mention spelling related to you again. What more can I say?
In addition, my job and interest is not to say "atta-girl" to everyone I agree with or "poop on you" to everyone I disagree with. (I guess we have Karma buttons for that now!) Your making that comment makes it appear that everyone is responsible for agreeing or disagreeing with everyone's comments. I don't think that's true.
People on this board and many others ALWAYS take a twist on other's people's posts. Just because you didn't think my twist was funny doesn't mean that I didn't think it was. I still do.
I don't think we're understanding each other. As I see this situation:
One person's tease is another person's hurtful comment (me to you). And one person's sarcasm is another person's insult (you to me).
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Post by ♥ COVID-19♥ on Jun 13, 2005 11:30:13 GMT -6
(and I'm waiting for BB to insert fart comment here). Oh, how I do so love it when women ask me to insert things! In fact ... I love it alot!
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Post by DT on Jun 13, 2005 22:04:34 GMT -6
"I don't know this guy or how many batchelor parties he's going to show it at or if he's going to be home in a lonely apartment jerking off to the tape."
"and sometimes nostagicaly wondered about the things I would have seen if I had not found Hedo, as I had traveled somewhat before Hedo."
"And for this I had to stand on line and show my welfare card? They are making us feel like beggars!!! And they are all congratulating themseves,"
"who can't form a sentence gramattically or without collequiesms."
These are excerpts from the last four post I have read from Irish Eyes in June. It appears our difference is I don't agree with your what is "often grammatically correct." Which in turn I see no humor? My error in the words "a lot" was not intentional.
OK, I'll agree here as long as you don't argue about my opinion and feelings about Youse having a negative day there?(being curious) Book sales down for the month?(being curious and sarcastic) If you can't, Tuff Titty!!!
Again what don't you understand about I don't give a rats ass about my spelling. I am a firm believer in "sticks and stones can break your bones. But words can never hurt you." (that is one of the many reasons I like the Political Board the best)
My sensitivity goes out to the poor speller that a Spelling Hawk jumps on and intimidates them with spelling errors to the point they won't post anymore. In the past year I have had several sparring matches with the uno numero Spelling Hawk on this board. I can say. Through them bouts. I am more open to the point he makes about a well spelled post being more credible. Than I could a year ago. Other than that I see no reason to attack ones typo or misspelled word on a message board. When it happens I'll bark back.
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Post by Christinko on Jun 14, 2005 8:11:48 GMT -6
Bark away, oh person who claims not to give a rat's ass about his spelling. I still don't intend to call you out on your spelling again. Fighting an unarmed opponent isn't fair.
I likely will call out others (with good writing skills) on it if the context is confusing or humorous. I would hope they would "get it" and laugh along with me. You and I have no such understanding.
I'm not going to deign to continue to make my same original argument, which I stand by. I would only be repeating myself at this point.
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Post by DT on Jun 14, 2005 9:25:13 GMT -6
Make that you have no understanding. I can see the humor in your post. After I seen where the fork in the road took us on different paths. To bad your on a one way street. I tried to point you to that fork in the road. Either you are not comprehending or I haven't explained it well enough?
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