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Post by JustIan on Mar 5, 2005 7:38:11 GMT -6
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Mar 5, 2005 8:04:05 GMT -6
Understandably, its gonna cause a BIG crisis for the Italian PM, but I cant help but wonder why the driver didnt slow down.
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 5, 2005 11:38:48 GMT -6
but I cant help but wonder why the driver didnt slow down. That's not how she tells it : Edited to add : Simon |
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Post by Chicago Jake on Mar 6, 2005 22:44:57 GMT -6
Sounds like a case of "he said, she said". We may never know.....Jake
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Post by Harrybutt on Mar 7, 2005 6:47:24 GMT -6
I trust Zarqawi is using his money wisely. Damn I hate it when "allies "screw the pooch". I bet the Brits haven't paid any money to the terrorists....
=============================
Italians kept U.S. forces in dark
By John Phillips
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
ROME -- Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.
The decision by operatives of Italy's SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have "short-circuited" communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city's airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.
That would help explain why American troops opened fire on a car whisking the released hostage to a waiting airplane, wounding Miss Sgrena and killing the Italian intelligence operative who had just negotiated her release.
Thousands of Italians yesterday congregated on the Altar to the Fatherland in Rome's vast Piazza Venezia to view the coffin of Nicola Calipari, the 52-year-old head of SISMI's international operations department.
Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Communist daily Il Manifesto, charged yesterday that U.S. forces might have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposes Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.
"The United States doesn't approve of this [ransom] policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible," the veteran war reporter, 57, told Sky Italia TV.
Miss Sgrena, whose newspaper ardently opposes Italy's deployment of 3,000 troops in Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition, offered no direct evidence to support the charge and toned down the suggestion in a later interview with Reuters.
"If this happened because of a lack of information or deliberately, I don't know, but even if it was due to a lack of information, it is unacceptable," she said from her hospital room.
There were conflicting reports on the extent to which Italian authorities had informed their American counterparts about the operation, in which a reported $6 million was paid for the journalist's release.
Mr. Calipari and another senior SISMI operative concluded the deal for her release on Friday in Abu Dhabi and then flew to Baghdad aboard a secret service Falcon executive jet to collect her, La Stampa said.
At the airport, they met an Italian military liaison office,r and U.S. military authorities issued them passes allowing them to travel around Baghdad carrying weapons, the newspaper said citing SISMI sources.
The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage.
But La Stampa also quoted diplomatic sources saying vital information was withheld from the Americans.
"Italian intelligence decided to free Sgrena paying a sum to the kidnappers without informing American colleagues in Iraq who, if they had known about this, would have had to oppose it, to have impeded the operation," sources said.
"If this was the case, it could explain why American intelligence had not informed the American military commands about the operation and thus the patrol did not expect the car with the Italians."
Whatever the truth, the affair aroused public opinion and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to take a tough line with President Bush.
Mr. Berlusconi won plaudits last year when Mr. Calipari obtained the release of two young volunteers kidnapped in Iraq known as the two Simonas, also through payment of a multimillion dollar ransom.
That money reputedly came not from the state, but from the personal fortune of Mr. Berlusconi, a media magnate who is Italy's richest man.
But the death of Mr. Calipari, while using his body to shield Miss Sgrena from U.S. fire, has sparked deep anger and could cost the prime minister in regional elections at the end of this month.
In the past, the Italian left detested the security services, notorious for skulduggery and links to the neo-fascist right, but since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the left has idolized men like Mr. Calipari, who spent most of his career as a police officer in his native Calabria fighting organized crime. He transferred to the military intelligence service just two years ago.
Several government ministers joined the driver of the car yesterday in rejecting the U.S. explanation that the Americans opened fire only after the driver ignored signals to slow down as he approached a checkpoint.
Mr. Bush has promised a full probe into why troops shot at the Italian car nearing Baghdad airport Friday evening.
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Post by Tex on Mar 7, 2005 8:16:18 GMT -6
This sounds like something that will have to be sorted out thoroughly. Were the Americans were notified that the car would be coming through?, did the car respect normal procedures and slow down?, were the Americans notified that the car was coming but failed to communicate that to those manning the checkpoint? did the soldiers followed established procedure? These are all questions that need to be answered. That the lady would speak ill of the Americans is a given, she writes for a communist paper. Who is at fault for the death of the Italian agent will be determined over the coming weeks.
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 7, 2005 9:01:50 GMT -6
That the lady would speak ill of the Americans is a given, she writes for a communist paper. You are right Tex, her version of events is no doubt biased and we have yet to hear what the surviving Italian secret service agents have to say. I find it hard to believe though that a car containing government agents wouldn't stop when ordered to do so, particularly if warning shots were fired as the US soldiers claim. I think there is a lot more yet to come out of this story . Simon |
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 7, 2005 9:07:24 GMT -6
Another one?
Simon
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Post by Ardbeg... innit on Mar 7, 2005 10:43:07 GMT -6
I have heard that the road in question, going to the Bahgdad airport, is one of the most dangerous in the world. Almost every vehicle travels that route at the fastest possible speed, so a high speed vehicle would not be unusual. Hopefully this is not the result of a distracted driver. However, the fact that the Italians never mentioned to the US who the vehicle was carrying, or its mission, let alone the vehicle not being in full communications with the troops leaves a lot of unanswered questions.
BUT you HAVE to bet that the conspiracy theory that the woman and her newspaper have started (we did it to get back at the Italians for negotiating with the kidnappers) will get A LOT of mileage in Italy and elsewhere, REGARDLESS of whatever facts come out from our investigation.
Gordon
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Post by Tex on Mar 7, 2005 10:50:01 GMT -6
IMHO, the jury is out on this affair and there are just too many facts that we don't know yet to come to any conclusions. The facts are ascertainable and will be determined. We should sit tight on this until the facts are available.
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 7, 2005 11:07:34 GMT -6
BUT you HAVE to bet that the conspiracy theory that the woman and her newspaper have started (we did it to get back at the Italians for negotiating with the kidnappers) will get A LOT of mileage in Italy and elsewhere, REGARDLESS of whatever facts come out from our investigation. Agreed. However the Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is a staunch supporter and ally of Bush and you can be sure that his official line will be more objective until all the facts are known, in fact there have already been calls by Italian ministers for an end to such conspiracy talk. Simon |
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 8, 2005 9:18:02 GMT -6
Simon
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Post by DT on Mar 8, 2005 9:39:55 GMT -6
I have been searching my ass off cause I know either on Reuters, MSNBC, or Fox on Sunday I clicked on a link that was her story. It was moments before the incident they where avoiding pot holes or puddles and laughing about being careful not to get hurt right after her release. My thoughts when reading it was were they speeding or driving so irregular that set the fireworks off?
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Post by Carla on Mar 8, 2005 11:10:22 GMT -6
IMHO, the jury is out on this affair and there are just too many facts that we don't know yet to come to any conclusions. The facts are ascertainable and will be determined. We should sit tight on this until the facts are available. I wholeheartedly agree with Tex on this one. There are facts that need to be sorted out. That being said, let me also state that I was against this war in Iraq from the beginning for the obvious reasons, but since our troops are there, I believe they deserve our support. They have a job to do and they are just trying to do it. This situation is a very unfortunate one, but the comments made by Sgrena were just plain irresponsible. She used a tragic situation to promote her propoganda and I find that to be disgusting. It's truly unfortunate that the gentlemen (I forget his name) lost his life in this way, but before the soldiers are put to blame on this one, I think they ought to be cut a little slack. They are fighting for their lives and the lives of Iraqi citizens. If it is true that the Italians didn't properly communicate with the US forces, then they need to be willing to accept SOME of the responsibility for this situation before they decide to put the blame on the U.S. Again, my position has been against the war, but enough is enough. Whether I agree with our troops being there or not, they are there to do a job to the best of their ability. I don't think they should be held to some unreachable standard. The Italians had a duty to cooperate and communicate with the US soldiers. It doesn't sound like they held up their end of the bargain. |
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Post by Bluejay on Mar 8, 2005 11:28:48 GMT -6
The reporter probably deserves a little slack as well. She was just shot at, and had someone die in her lap.
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Post by Carla on Mar 8, 2005 11:31:38 GMT -6
The reporter probably deserves a little slack as well. She was just shot at, and had someone die in her lap. Agreed. I'm not saying she doesn't. Still, for her to turn right around and accuse the US of "attacking" her car...come on...I can't be alone in believing that was just plain wrong??? |
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 8, 2005 12:14:57 GMT -6
Again, my position has been against the war, but enough is enough. Whether I agree with our troops being there or not, they are there to do a job to the best of their ability. I don't think they should be held to some unreachable standard. The Italians had a duty to cooperate and communicate with the US soldiers. It doesn't sound like they held up their end of the bargain. As the Italians are saying exactly the opposite you actually have no more idea of whether they co-operated or not than I do. If you had been in the terrifying situation of being a passenger in a car that was sprayed with bullets and had someone die on top of you whilst trying save your life you might be a little paranoid and pointing the finger of blame too. And as I have already posted, the Italian government is already trying to put a stop to such accusations, but they are also angry that one of their agents has been killed and want to know the truth about what happened, and for those responsible to be punished, IF they are at fault. Simon |
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Post by Carla on Mar 8, 2005 12:28:01 GMT -6
Why does someone have to be "at fault"? Can't this just be a tragic accident? I find it impossible to believe these troops fired on that car as a way of punishing Italy for negotiating with troops.
Simon wrote: "If you had been in the terrifying situation of being a passenger in a car that was sprayed with bullets and had someone die on top of you whilst trying save your life you might be a little paranoid and pointing the finger of blame too."
Look, I'm not saying she shouldn't be devastated and terrified and want some answers. But to make the assumption that the US attacked her because they/we don't like the negotiation tactics of Italy is more than a stretch. And even the newspaper she works for and others in the Italian government have backed away from that assumption. Her comments do more harm than good.
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 8, 2005 14:58:22 GMT -6
Why does someone have to be "at fault"? Can't this just be a tragic accident? I find it impossible to believe these troops fired on that car as a way of punishing Italy for negotiating with troops. The only person who is saying that troops deliberately fired on the car is Giuliana Sgrena herself and it's not a claim that is being taken seriously anywhere else. It may be that nobody was at fault and that a tragic set of circumstances that led to the shooting. But it needs to be established if that was the case or if anyone was at fault. Why? Because by finding out what went wrong procedures can be reviewed to try to prevent it happening again. Because if the driver ignored US army orders to stop and caused the death of a government official the Italian government will want him to be held to account. Because if the Italian officials broke with procedures then their government will want them to be held to account. Because if US soldiers fired on a car containing three Italian government officials and a civilian with no warning and without just cause then they will want them to be held to account. Because the Italian prime minister wants to know why his government's officials were opened fire on and one of his top agents shot dead by his country's allies. Because Nicola Calipari was a national hero in Italy and the whole country there wants to know why he was shot by their allies. Because his widow and his family have a right to know how and why he died. Is that enough reasons? It would be very convenient to just brush this aside and call it a just a tragic accident just because the truth may not be very palatable, to either side. Simon |
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Post by Carla on Mar 8, 2005 15:07:45 GMT -6
Simon, I think you're missing my original point (or perhaps I didn't make it clear), so let me re-state it. If you'll recall, in my original post, I agreed with Tex in that this will and will need to be sorted out in the coming weeks. And there was just not enough information right now.
I also stated that I was disgusted by Sgrena's comments stating that the US troops intentionally fired upon her car. I still stand by all of that, so what are we debating here?
I agree with everything in your last post as spelled out in my original post. Specifically, that yes there needs to be a sorting out of things. My problem is with IMMEDIATELY finding fault with the US troops. I never wrote nor did I even imply that there shouldn't be an investigation. I wrote that Sgrena's comments were unnecessary, which they were. So while you're misunderstanding my posts as though I'm condemning her or condemning any investigation of what happened, I'd suggest to you to put on your reading glasses and please re-read.
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 8, 2005 15:29:58 GMT -6
Carla
In your original post you went on the defensive about the American troops involved, which is understandable as I would feel the same if they were troops from my country, then you started looking for ways to apportion blame to the Italians AFTER agreeing with Tex that we don't yet know the facts and should sit tight on this.
You then said :
I disagreed with those two sentiments and set out my reasons why. I thought that was pretty clear, with or without reading glasses.
Simon
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Post by Carla on Mar 8, 2005 15:51:54 GMT -6
I went on the defense about the troops AFTER stating that I was against this war in the first place. A lot has been said about our troops, good and bad. And ya know what? If the US troops do something that they shouldn't, yes they should be held accountable. However, they shouldn't be the catch-all for the blame game. I didn't look for ways to apportion blame to the Italians. I said,
"If it is true that the Italians didn't properly communicate with the US forces, then they need to be willing to accept SOME of the responsibility for this situation before they decide to put the blame on the U.S."
IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! IF!
And yes, I then went on to ask why someone needed to be "at fault". That was after you stated that someone should be punished, if at fault. I was merely offering that maybe it was just an accident. Those do happen sometimes, ya know? But as I have said previously, IF the U.S. troops act with blatant disregard, then they should be held accountable.
Abu Graib? Guilty.
This current situation? Who knows?
I am in disagreement with Sgrena's comments, which were what my original post was about and nothing more. I'm not saying it's the Italian's fault. I'm not saying it's anybody's fault. Regardless, Sgrena's comments were wrong. I know she had been traumatized and I can't imagine what she must be dealing with. That doesn't give her the right to make poor ASSUMPTIONS in an already volatile situation. Period!
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 8, 2005 17:56:26 GMT -6
Carla You really need to actually re-read your own posts rather than just cherrypicking extracts. I said you started to look for ways to apportion blame to the Italians AFTER agreeing with Tex because you said : I'm sorry, but your whole point that you agreed with Tex that we don't know the full facts fell flat on its face when you started making excuses for the soldiers, who may well have done nothing wrong at all, and finding a way to at least get some of the blame onto the Italians. So then you backtracked and said why can't it just be a tragic accident. Wasn't it you telling Joe to lighten up yesterday?  ;D That's where you are 100 percent wrong. You and I may disagree with her (and I most certainly do) but she has every right to assume and say whatever she pleases and if she believes she was targeted then she has the right to say so. They do have freedom of speech in Italy too you know. Simon |
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Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 8, 2005 18:23:45 GMT -6
Carla That's where you are 100 percent wrong. You and I may disagree with her (and I most certainly do) but she has every right to assume and say whatever she pleases and if she believes she was targeted then she has the right to say so. They do have freedom of speech in Italy too you know. Simon Simon you are 100% right in your statement. But trying to turn it into a conspiracy is wrong, and the Italian Government is even trying to cool that theory down right now. Let the investigation be completed. In the the long run, it looks like it was a tragic accident. It should have never happened but in that situation maybe if you or I where there we would have done they same thing. Who knows? Joe. |
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Mar 8, 2005 19:55:11 GMT -6
Oh for CHRIST'S SAKE![/color]
Forgive me for not being politically correct.
The truly sad thing about this whole incident is that the intelligence officer who negotiated the release of this lady died doing his duty.
What SUCKS is this COMMUNIST LOVING BITCH WHO HATES AMERICA somehow lived through the "tank attack" and now slams America.
Could someone suggest to this idiot piece of sh*t that HAD a tank attacked her, she'd be barn-stormin' the Heavens about now? This Lib'rul ASSHOLE reporter HATES America, was against the war in Iraq that is bringing FREEDOM to that part of the World that NEEDS ch-ch-changing, and now makes up idiotic charges that have no basis in reality.
I'm just SO SORRY we missed!
..........Bob (do I have to say this is part tongue in cheek?) ;D
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Post by Carla on Mar 9, 2005 11:05:49 GMT -6
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Post by Merlot Joe on Mar 9, 2005 13:18:31 GMT -6
No your not beating a dead horse. I seen Dan's comments on his show yesterday and he could be right. Joe. |
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Post by That English Guy on Mar 9, 2005 18:01:02 GMT -6
Giuliana Sgrena originally made her remarks to Sky's Italian news station Sky Italia on her return to Italy, but in subsequent interviews she toned down her 'suspicions', such as in the interview in this article from Sunday that also contains those first remarks news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stmIl Manifesto, the newspaper she writes for, has since distanced itself from her comments, and the Italian government have flatly denied that they have any grounding in truth. As the only people who may be taking her comments seriously are her fellow anti-war activists then IMHO it's time to put things in perspective and be more concerned about getting to the bottom of what really happened rather than the ramblings of an obviously shocked and distressed woman who had just spent a month in captivity fearing that her captors might at any time and cut her head off, then minutes after her release had her saviour shot through the head and die on top of her. Simon |
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Post by Tex on Mar 9, 2005 18:15:23 GMT -6
The Pentagon has announced that they will conduct their most extensive type of investigation. IMHO, this is owed to the Italians. If it vindicates our troops, that's good. If we were at fault, even a fuck up owned up to and apologized for is some consolation for the injured party.
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Post by DT on Mar 10, 2005 15:49:41 GMT -6
Looks like you can rule out being sprayed with bullets. I seen a pic of the car and it showed three bullet holes. Not much of a sparying. But, when I think of a car being sprayed with bullets Bonnie and Clyde comes to mind.  Uh Huh... This rules out tank attack. So simple yet didn't cross my mind till I seen it in black and white  |
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;D
