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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 8, 2005 17:24:04 GMT -6
Did Bush mess up handing over the tsunami relief to the incompetent U.N?? Sounds sorta like wilful negligence to me. He knows the u.N. is incompetent. I think he has squandered, yet again, a golden opportunity. Damn squanderer. He really just don't give a $hiite....
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 8, 2005 17:37:55 GMT -6
You can say "sh*t" here if you want.....Jake
(But that's what happens to it!)
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 8, 2005 18:29:57 GMT -6
Damn you [glow=red,2,300] IS [/glow] prepared for Doc! Hellfire and damnation!
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 8, 2005 18:36:50 GMT -6
F*ck HB why don't you just blame him for the tsunami to.
Why do we have to pull the UN's ass out of every time?
The best thing the UN could do is put up a going out of business sign and do us a favor.
Joe.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 8, 2005 18:40:43 GMT -6
Further more why should we be responsible for everyone else. Let somebody else pick up the load for a ch-ch-change.
With that I am done for this evening.
Joe.
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 8, 2005 18:43:25 GMT -6
Dat's alright with me, jd. And re: Bush & the tsunami...there is, in fact, several conspiracy theories there..... I get tired of the double talk. First the man says the U.N is incompetent and not worthy of a say in whether to put the world at war, then he says they are competent enough to run aid program for millions of very needy Asians. Sounds to me like the feller hates Asians. Kill off the U.N. I have said before..do it and be done with it. Let's see jhust how far into hell we can descend. Full Throttle Bush...the American electorate needs and very much deserves it. I hope the currant Patriot Act looks like a 1950's Playboy in comparison to what Bush is allowed to conjure up for us. It is time..the masses have spoken...c'mon Mr. Bush and the repubs...give us your best shot..... Ah...feels like old times, eh jd? ;D
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 8, 2005 18:49:50 GMT -6
Man, I've got a big ol' smile on my face. Joe and Harry, it's good to see ya. Just like old times! I feel like the kids are home from college and it's one big happy family again!.....Jake
p.s. - Harry, glad to see you found yourself an avatar
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 8, 2005 19:44:09 GMT -6
Thanks Jake, good to be here. Thanks for the shelter for us refugees. If you go into the travel bidness, I'll hunt you down like a curr dog. ;D The avatar was a shot in the dark..always keepin my eyeballs peeled for sumpthin better.
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 8, 2005 19:47:23 GMT -6
[quote author=Harrybutt Thanks Jake, good to be here. Thanks for the shelter for us refugees. If you go into the travel bidness, I'll hunt you down like a curr dog. ;D
=======================================
I'll join you.
It's fun to be back ain't it. ;D
Joe
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 8, 2005 20:47:12 GMT -6
The UN? The FREEKIN" United NATIONS? HUH? GIVE ME A BREAK!!! There AIN'T nuttin' UNITED about the UN!!!! It's a SOCIO-MARXIST LIB'RUL TONGUE LAPPIN" American Hatin' BUSH BASHING PIG IN THE MUD bunch of IDIOTS if you ask me!! If I was Bush, I'd give them the PINK SLIP and send them to PARIS where CHIRAC can kiss their ass and shine their balls!! .........Tsunami BOB!! ;D Edited to add: DAMN that felt good!! THANK'S JAKE!!
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 8, 2005 20:54:36 GMT -6
Bob, watch it, or I'm gonna have to delete you. Ha, just kidding, post away as postal as you like!....Jake ;D
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 8, 2005 21:05:41 GMT -6
Bob, watch it, or I'm gonna have to delete you. Yes DADDY DENNY, I will be a good boy, I PROMISE!!! (Now, can you PWWUUUEEEEZZZZZ ch-ch-change my diaper??? I POOPED!!) ;D
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 8, 2005 21:07:09 GMT -6
Fine and dandy. Agreed that the U.N is worthless...so to make your point you allow a few million people to suffer horrible deaths that you could have prevented had you not wanted to prove yourself right? As long as it ain't us...........forgot about that plank of the "conservative" platform...
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 8, 2005 21:10:13 GMT -6
So Bush is wrong when he IGNORES the UN, and he's just as wrong when he USES the UN. Huh? Make up your mind, Harry.....Jake
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Post by Exildo Wonsetler Briggs III on Jan 8, 2005 21:25:41 GMT -6
Fine and dandy. Agreed that the U.N is worthless...so to make your point you allow a few million people to suffer horrible deaths that you could have prevented had you not wanted to prove yourself right? Can you say SUDAN HB??? WHERE is the UN on that one??? I'm confused!!
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Post by luckyhedo on Jan 8, 2005 23:31:29 GMT -6
I guess baboons are better then mankind: "The good news for humans is that it looks like peaceful conditions, once established, can be maintained. And if baboons can do it, why not us? — Frans de Waal, Yerkes Primate Center, Emory University About 20 years ago, a disaster struck the Forest Troop of baboons in Kenya. There was a tourist lodge within their range, and the biggest and toughest males in the troop would regularly go to the garbage dump there to forage for food. Subordinate males, however, did not go — so when the brutal and despotic alpha males of Forest Troop all ate meat infected with bovine tuberculosis at the dump and promptly died, the less aggressive 50 per cent of the group's males survived. And the troop's whole culture changed." www.commondreams.org/views04/1230-05.htm
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 9, 2005 8:45:58 GMT -6
See this is what the "conservatives" do, answer a question with a question. Thereby avoiding the question.
Why is it me that must make up my mind? I haven't been defending the U.N.. I hate seeing the f*cking politics Bush is playing with millions of peoples lives and he really couldn't give a sh*t. If he has the low opinionn of the U.N. that he says he does (ala Iraq) then how, with any conscience (and I think that is the key) can he turn over direction and implementation of the tsunami relief to them?
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Post by Chicago Jake on Jan 9, 2005 11:09:00 GMT -6
....Why is it me that must make up my mind? I haven't been defending the U.N.... No but you HAVE criticized Bush for going into Iraq without the approval of the UN. You are the one being inconsistent. For all your claims of focusing on the issues, you really just hate Bush, whatever he does......Jake
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 9, 2005 12:10:47 GMT -6
Yes, I have criticized Bush for going in as the lone cowboy in that situation. There was absolutely no reason why it had to happen when it did. Obviously when the U.N. weapons inspectors told us that our intelligence was flawed about WMD locations.....they were not the incompetent oafs the administration made them out to be, butt rather, they were correct. What does that criticism have to do with the questiuon as to GWB and his lack of empathy and callous disregard for what is happening? I still have not seen any attempt to answer the oringinal question.........
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 9, 2005 13:37:33 GMT -6
Did Bush mess up handing over the tsunami relief to the incompetent U.N?? "NO". There, does that answer you question? Joe
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 9, 2005 14:44:40 GMT -6
I guess that will have to do. I was hoping to have that end of the answer fleshed out a bit. Butt I am getting used to the "conservative" mantra of "we don't have to explain". I understand it makes life as a "conservative" easier...
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 9, 2005 14:46:36 GMT -6
Wonderful to see ya'll here!
Are you saying the "conservatives" are the "alpha males" of our politics?
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 10, 2005 13:58:28 GMT -6
I guess that will have to do. I was hoping to have that end of the answer fleshed out a bit. Butt I am getting used to the "conservative" mantra of "we don't have to explain". I understand it makes life as a "conservative" easier... What do you want , us to write a frigging book? My answer is no. Loud mouth at the UN said he Fu*cked up when at first he only said we would send 35million in relief funds. I feel that once all the information was received and just exactly how bad the disaster, he then got the 350million and military and other aid sent there. What did our loud mouth friends from France send down there? As of 1/4/05 the French Government 50million. A little short of our 325million. Joe.
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 10, 2005 14:41:47 GMT -6
No, I doesn't want you write a book. Is there no middle ground betweeen a simple "No" and a book? You say "No, Bush did not mess up by turning over the tsunami relief to the U.N."
In light of the obvious lack of respect and willful contempt of the U.N...it seems odd that such a hugemongous relief effort upon which soo many thousands of lives depend, would be turned over to such a ill equiped, poorly managed, bunmbling organization.
Where do ya'll get that I am trying to defend the U.N.. Since the election, I have said on more than one occaision that we should let it die......
Ok, wall...your turn....
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Post by Merlot Joe on Jan 10, 2005 15:16:19 GMT -6
In light of the obvious lack of respect and willful contempt of the U.N...it seems odd that such a hugemongous relief effort upon which soo many thousands of lives depend, would be turned over to such a ill equiped, poorly managed, bunmbling organization. I have to agree, the UN is all of what you mentioned aboves. Being such a screwed up organization it does not deserve any respect. If Bush would have jumped up and taken the lead, then he would have been hit with "Here he goes not waiting for the UN again, going it on his own, who does he think he is." He played it cool, gave 35 million at first, got the rest of the info then took further action. Joe.
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Post by Harrybutt on Jan 10, 2005 15:57:01 GMT -6
Dat's just it. Going to kill thousands with bombs and guns....we don't need the U.N....they are incompetent...kill thousands with disease....we need the U.N for that cause they are incompetent.
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Post by luckyhedo on Jan 11, 2005 16:24:15 GMT -6
Wonderful to see ya'll here! Are you saying the "conservatives" are the "alpha males" of our politics? No, I was referring to the war hawks and powerful unilateralists. The point of the article was that although the United Nations has a lot left to be desired, since it’s founding it has achieved its main purpose: there has been no war between the major world powers, and WWIII so far has been averted. As an example (although not in the article) the Suez Canal Crisis in Oct. 1956 was within a hairs-breadth of WWIII, involving the United States vs. the U.S.S.R over the United Kingdom and France’s aims to invade Egypt and using Israel as a willing and eager accomplice in the scheme who had led the invasion. Lester B. Pearson Minister of External Affairs (and future Prime Minister, 1963-68 for Canada’s Liberal party government at the time diffused the crisis by envisaging and creating the “Blue Helmet” peace keeping arm of the United Nations. For which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. SEE: collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume4/228-229.htmWe must remember that since classical times foreign policy of all states is based on the self-serving interest of the state. This is true to this day. The U.N provides a forum through which a more global view of co-operation can be achieved outside of any nation state’s self-interest. The magic so far has been in the natural hegemony that is created in belonging to a group ; in this case one that first and foremost seeks dialogue, resolution, and when necessary, military action in order to achieve world peace. Individual states on the other hand seek only to protect their self-interest which in and of itself can lead to a new global war. As the article states: “If you assessed the progress that has been made since 1945 from the perspective of that terrifying time, the glass would look at least half-full. The enormous growth of international organizations since 1945, and especially the survival of the United Nations as a permanent forum where the states of the world are committed to avoiding war (and often succeed), has already created a context new to history. The present political fragmentation of the world into more than 150 stubbornly independent territorial units will doubtless persist for a good while to come. But it is already becoming an anachronism, for, in every other context, from commerce, technology, and the mass media to fashions in ideology, music, and marriage, the outlines of a single global culture (with wide local variations) are visibly taking shape. It is very likely that we began our career as a rising young species by exterminating our nearest relatives, the Neanderthals, and it is entirely possible we will end it by exterminating ourselves, but the fact that we have always had war as part of our culture does not mean that we are doomed always to fight wars. Other aspects of our behavioral repertoire are a good deal more encouraging. There is, for example, a slow but quite perceptible revolution in human consciousness taking place: the last of the great redefinitions of humanity. At all times in our history, we have run our affairs on the assumption that there is a special category of people (our lot) whom we regard as full human beings, having rights and duties approximately equal to our own, and whom we ought not to kill even when we quarrel. Over the past 15,000 or 20,000 years we have successively widened this category from the original hunting-and-gathering band to encompass larger and larger groups. First it was the tribe of some thousands of people bound together by kinship and ritual ties; then the state, where we recognize our shared interests with millions of people whom we don't know and will never meet; and now, finally, the entire human race. There was nothing in the least idealistic or sentimental in any of the previous redefinitions. They occurred because they were useful in advancing people's material interests and ensuring their survival. The same is true for this final act of redefinition: We have reached a point where our moral imagination must expand again to embrace the whole of mankind. It's no coincidence that the period in which the concept of the national state is finally coming under challenge by a wider definition of humanity is also the period that has seen history's most catastrophic wars, for they provide the practical incentive for ch-ch-change. But the transition to a different system is a risky business: The danger of another world war which would cut the whole process short is tiny in any given year, but cumulatively, given how long the process of ch-ch-change will take, it is extreme. That is no reason not to keep trying. Our task over the next few generations is to transform the world of independent states in which we live into some sort of genuine international community. If we succeed in creating that community, however quarrelsome, discontented, and full of injustice it will probably be, then we shall effectively have abolished the ancient institution of warfare. Good riddance. “<br> LOU P.S. Thanks Harry, good to be here!
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Post by Ozmale on Jan 13, 2005 8:07:42 GMT -6
Dont worry about George or the UN - our military is up there helping out as well as our police, relief agencies, consular staff, government departments and gawd knows who else. Our little old government has chipped in about $700 million US ($1 billion AUD) for support/reliefe/rebuilding. Dont worry things will get done right! When the Aussie people get behind our government there aint nuttin' we cant do.....
Sorry if I let my patriotic fervour get the better of me! OzMale
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Post by Irish Stu on Jan 13, 2005 9:01:31 GMT -6
Well said Ozmale.
Aside from what our government and aid agencies are providing in terms of financial aid and help on the ground, here in the UK the generosity of ordinary people has been staggering. Within 7 days of the tragedy the British public had donated over £100 million (about $190 million) and there are still collection tins and appeals almost everywhere you look. The tsunami relief effort is not about one country, or group of countries, taking charge and 'running the show' or acting in isolation, it's about those countries that are able to help co-operating with each other to ensure that aid is provided wherever, and in whatever form, it is needed. And that means doing it through the appropriate body, the UN.
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Post by Tex on Jan 13, 2005 12:43:25 GMT -6
IMHO, the Australians and the English have both stepped up to the plate on all kinds of things in a far larger proportion than their size. The disgrace here is the oil rich Persian Gulf states, who have come up with a pittance. When it comes to stirring up shit and funding terrorists, they donate big. When it comes to feeding their fellow Moslems in need (Indonesia), they turn their back.
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